I was speaking with Kudlow yesterday before the show, and he loved a cartoon I had sent him (via Weedon):

Outrage

It would certainly benefit Moderate practioners of Islam if they were to recognize the disrepute the radical Islamofascists (is that really a word?) brings to their religon. Even the Pope apologized for the holocaust and the Spanish Inquistion.  I hope we don’t have to wait 400 years to hear moderates condemn the violence somewhat louder . . .

Category: Politics, War/Defense

Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.

51 Responses to “Outrage!”

  1. Two quick points:

    (1) Most of the carbombs, beheadings etc. are inflicted by one set of Muslims upon …. another set of Muslims, who then react with….. carbombs, beheadings etc. I wouldn’t describe such a bloody eye-for-an-eye strategy as “mildly dyspeptic”.

    (2) The American response to the death of 3,000 innocent civilians has been the death of how many innocent civilians in the Muslim world? If we see their deaths as mere collateral damage, why shouldn’t they deem our deaths equally unimportant?

    “It would certainly benefit Moderate practioners of Islam if they were to recognize the disrepute the radical Islamofascists (is that really a word?) brings to their religon.”

    It would certainly befit those Moderates, but benefit? What do these moderates stand to gain by opening their mouths and risking their lives?

    In order to win, it was the US government’s job post-911 to make it beneficial for moderates to denounce the extremists. Divide and conquer. As per the latest NIE, heckuva job, Rumsfeld.

  2. “It would certainly befit those Moderates, but benefit? What do these moderates stand to gain by opening their mouths and risking their lives?”

    They stand to gain a victory over world-wide Islamic terrorism like the rest of us who are equally at risk. And, with them, we have a better chance of a swifter victory. Other than that, not much.
    *I am still waiting for my slave reparartions payment from Egypt.*

  3. Bob_in_ma says:

    Excellent post Jasper.

    If what we honestly wanted was a more peaceful Middle East, what if after 9-11 we poured a few billion into the economic development of moderate states like Jordan, created something like Rhodes scholarships for students from Muslim countries to study in western universities and not tried to use our military to force-feed people on what a narrow part of this country think is “right?”

    We could have spent twice, or three times, the money we have in Afghanistan and had a great deal of success, rather than pissing away hundreds of billion dollars on a completely unnecessary war in Iraq, creating both a breeding ground and a justification for Islamic extremism.

    Frankly Barry, your post goes something beyond simplistic.

  4. lurker says:

    great posts. I am still looking for the outrage over backdated options. Where are the “honest” CEOs codemning this looting of corporations? The western media focuses and hypes where it will and the resulting coverage is warped and insulting to “normal” Muslims and “honest” capitalists the world over.

  5. Islamic terrorism is one one thing and the “adventure” in Iraq is another. We have created something in Iraq that didn’t exist before: instability, a friend to Iran, uniting of muslims against U.S., religious based politics, Mullah controlled regions, talk of Kurdish independence and disruption of oil flow.

  6. Jeff D says:

    Have the Moors apologized for invading Spain yet?

    Or the Turks for invading the Balkans?

  7. Reluctant Anon says:

    I liked the cartoon — a lot!

    What’s more, I think it says…a lot.

    Inasmuch as I am currently in a heated discussion (not to say debate) on the very subject, I decided to post anonymously.

  8. Patrick (G) says:

    No, Islamofascism is not a word.

    It fits Orwell’s definition of fascism not having much meaning anymore other than something that is undesireable. But what is it? who believes in it? what are its core tenets? These are all unanswerable questions.

    What it is, really, is a tired piece of hackish demagoguery trying to convince us that our invasion of Iraq is fighting the Good Fight against those Muslim Nazis (For another example in the same vein, recall the “Axis of evil”).

    If anything, the use of ‘Islamofascism’ shows our ignorance. If we truly understood who we were fighting and why, there wouldn’t be a need for these retro-WWII-like labels.

  9. I have provided the FBI information on a known terrorist right here in Scottsdale and they no longer will take my calls. Hold, that known terrorist is calling me down for hot coffee…….
    *better be Italian Roast!*

  10. rob says:

    Kind of like asking african americans to condemn the o.j. verdict. Imo the relative lack of violent crime perpetrated by muslims (how many U.S. muslims commit violent crime) is condemnation enough. I’m more interested in what people do than what they say.

    There are 7 million muslims in the U.S. and I haven’t noted a propensity for violence among them.

  11. “There are 7 million muslims in the U.S. and I haven’t noted a propensity for violence among them.”
    That’s because the Yankees have already clinched….

  12. Alaskan Pete says:

    Barry, while I agree with your premise…

    We could say the very same about radical Christians. Let’s see, outraged over Janet Jackson’s titty, but Eric Rudolph bombing the olympics and clinics in the name of baby jesus…never hear a peep out of the radical christianists. Clinton gets a blowjob…end of the world, but Pat Robertson calls for the assasination of another country’s democractically elected president…not a peep out of the Christianists.

    Be careful where you focus your outrage. Given our news media’s descent into tabloid journalism (latest missing white woman, Michael Jackson, Jon Benet all day, every day) do you really expect that a moderate muslim voice calling for an end to terrorism would receive ANY attention at all? Of course not, because it’s not sensational compared to a religious nutbag calling for beheadings.

    Since i doubt you speak arabic, or farsi, nor read newspapers from the region, nor live in the region, how would you even know what the moderate muslims are saying?

  13. kaan says:

    As a secular Turk I experienced firsthand how secular Turkey has been infiltrated by Islamists financed by Saudi Arabia with explicit US consent in 80s supposedly to fight communist menace.
    After 2 decades same forces nourished by US are seemingly menacing US but somehow most but not all victims happen to be muslims, are being demonised by US media.
    I am deeply disappointed that intelligent people like Barry are consumed by this witchhunting.
    It is all about domination of increasingly depleting hydrocarbon resources in ME.

  14. foo says:

    Isn’t this the point where Indiana National Guardsman Jones pulls out a gun and shoots the guy.

    Problem solved (except that his teenage sons and cousins are watching from across the street).

  15. Dervin says:

    But Islam has no “Pope” it is just as diffused as the man made version of christianity. So at best you’ll have dueling imans and the news will only focus on the ones that bring the ratings.

    The other thing is how do we actually fight “islamofascism?” Economic Development? There’s always going to be the dead end poor – who’s willing to blow themselves up.

    Democracy? Pakistan had a coup because the radicals took power (the same with Morocco).

  16. Ryan says:

    Everybody has something to say about muslims these days just like everyone had something to say about catholics in the 1920s or blacks in the 1950s. A recent poll of Iraqis showed that 97% had an unfavorable opinion of Osama Bin Laden. I think 1% liked him and 2% were undecided. That’s enough to show me that most muslims do not support Al Qaeda.

  17. lurker says:

    wonder what Bush’s approval rating is in Iraq among Iraqis? Better or worse than Osama’s? That poor country and everyone trying to live and work there (our troops included). We really learned nothing from Vietnam.

  18. Ryan says:

    If you don’t like African-Americans, you’re racist. If you don’t like Jews, you’re an anti-semite. If you don’t like pretty much every other group, you’re also considered a bigot. But muslims don’t seem to count today for some reason. It seems to be perfectly acceptable in the United States today to hate muslims (all muslims not just terrorists). I hate terrorists just as much as anyone else but I realize that most a great great majority of muslims have nothing to do with it and are good and hardworking individuals. Imagine the pople had said Judaism was “evil and inhuman” or baptists were “evil and inhuman”. No Americans would have supported that. But a majority of Americans support the pope’s comments? This demagoguery has to stop.

  19. “Imagine the pople had said Judaism was “evil and inhuman” or baptists were “evil and inhuman”. No Americans would have supported that.”

    My wife is an American……

  20. lurker: Bush enjoys the highest level of popularity, according to Fox News, in….are you ready? – Iran. He was never popular in Iraq and today…forgettaboutit

  21. Ryan says:

    anon:

    There have been MANY muslim leaders who have condemned terrorists. You just ignore it when they do or claim that they’re lying, etc. Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq issued a fatwa that said it was the duty of every muslim in the West to follow the laws of and respect the country they live in. 3 million people marched in Iran to condemn the Sept. 11 attacks and yet a lot of people want to bomb them into oblivion.

  22. Ryan says:

    anon:

    Why is it that an extremist like Bin Laden who killed thousands of Americans does not have more than 5% support in any muslim country on earth but an extremist like Bush who started a pre-emptive war in Iraq over weapons of mass destruction and Al Qaeda ties that didn’t exist and killed thousands of muslims who hated Bin Laden to begin with was elected with 51% of the vote in the United States?

  23. “There have been MANY muslim leaders who have condemned terrorists.”

    Yes, and it’s having a huge impact!

  24. “Everybody has something to say about muslims these days just like everyone had something to say about catholics in the 1920s or blacks in the 1950s.”

    THEY MAKE POOR DANCERS!
    *there, I said it…*

  25. Ryan says:

    Larry: LOL

    anon: A lot of people said in the 1960s “find me a black leader who condemns the riots without stating some crap about segregation, civil rights, etc.”

  26. “Everybody has something to say about muslims these days just like everyone had something to say about catholics in the 1920s ”

    I certainly was not among them. However, I don’t think this country is ready to elect one President. At least, not yet.
    *What honey? They did? when?*

  27. brion says:

    PatrickG is spot on in his critique of “islamo-fascist™”.
    It’s just another bogus bit of marketing brought to you by the bad folks at…BUSHCO™

    The “WWII” allusions are a cheap call to arms to a nation that has not been asked to sacrifice
    -anything- for the “war” effort except Billions of their grandkids tax dollars….

  28. KP says:

    Maybe if we would stop doing Israel’s dirty work, a lot of our problems would solve themselves. We’ve tried picking sides in this conflict, maybe it is time we just let nature take it’s course, and stayed out of Middle East politics, period.

  29. “The “WWII” allusions are a cheap call to arms to a nation that has not been asked to sacrifice”

    True, but at least it diverts attention away from the housing bubble, Toxic Mortgages, The home as an ATM, condo projects in Florida, affordability index in Californaia and $2 trillion of something happening sometime………..

  30. “Maybe if we would stop doing Israel’s dirty work,”

    I BLAME NAFTA!

  31. “Here that sucking sound? It’s the sound of “dirty work” being sucked into Israel.” H. Ross Perot, 9/27/02

  32. anon: A lot of people said in the 1960s “find me a black leader!”
    Posted by: Ryan | Sep 28, 2006 2:29:01 PM

    YES, AND WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED NEXT! LOL

  33. donna says:

    Americans not even noticing as their government slides into tyranny…

  34. Donna: You have one of the longest blog rolls ever!

  35. When are you people gonna wake up and stop blaming Mr. Bush? He’s just following orders…..

  36. Ryan says:

    Larry: Because everyone blames the messenger

  37. Why do I even put up anything remotely political?

    It gets me nothing but agita!

  38. Why do I even put up anything remotely political?
    Posted by: Barry Ritholtz | Sep 28, 2006 2:59:09 PM

    TO PROVIDE ME WITH FRESH MATERIAL TO MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH?

  39. My presence here automatically makes others look smart!

  40. L'Emmerdeur says:

    I don’t remember any God People renouncing or condemning the Crusades. And those involved more Christian-on-Christian brutality than anything else.

    Thanks for weakening the Byzantine Empire, and then staring wide-eyed as the Ottomans gobbled up what was left and slaughtered their way to the walls of Vienna. Idiots.

  41. Patrick says:

    What is “moderate Islam” or a “moderate Muslim,” exactly? To my knowledge most so-called “moderates” believe that the Qu’ran is the literal word of Allah and absolute in its authority. The militants believe this also, but choose to act more thoroughly upon it.

    I agree with the cartoon’s mockery of Islamic rage over non-issues (those shitty Danish cartoons were worthy of effigy burning?) but the assumption that Muslims should be equally enraged over Muslim acts of violence shows the West’s collective ignorance and inability to think outside of its own value system or learn from its own history.

    There’s no such thing as moderate literalism. We should be championing the hypocrites in Islam, those who claim to believe but generally willfully ignore the demands of faith, just as most Christians in the West do today. It wasn’t “moderation” that won out in Christendom, it was hypocrisy and doubt, and those are our best levers against Islamic extremism.

    An no, “Islamofascist” is not a useful or meaningful term, just an attempt to inflate the danger of Islamic terrorism to the level of former European Fascism, because it isn’t even close.

  42. I believe this term, “Islamofascist”, was created this summer as a rallying call for republicans to be used along side “appeasers” as a way to stir up fear and emotion amongst voters and at the same time take a swipe at those who oppose their “adventure” in Iraq, such as democrats running for seats in November. Plain as day.

  43. DMR says:

    Here’s a moderate American speaking out:

    I love your blog and visit it at least a couple of times a day. Please go back to economics. You are good at it. I don’t come to this site expecting pornography. I don’t expect racial and ethnic hatred either.

    Yes, we get it…free speach, blah blah. I know this is a free country and you can post whatever you want in this free country. But, remember that your readers are free agents who will seek out higher quality information elsewhere as well.

    DMR

  44. “Please go back to economics.”

    They talk about economics and finance here as well? Huh…..

  45. rick says:

    Barry, to be fair, you left out the millions of muslims
    that have adapted very well to US Capitalism,
    the pursuit of money,,,, greed, lust and whatever
    goes with being considered a success in the US.

  46. V L says:

    Based on some responses on this board I will not be surprised to hear tomorrow in the news: “Muslims Outraged Over Barry Posting Cartoons” or some Islamic lunatic declaring Jihad against Barry.

    Why do Muslims get so sensitive over cartoons but no one was sensitive about all the killings done by Islamic radicals or over them declaring Jihad against the US and killing 3000 of innocent people on 9/11?

    If somebody was using my religion to justify killing people I would be outraged.

  47. jkw says:

    The correct term is Islamic fundamentalists. Bush and others don’t want to use it because the Christian fundamentalists don’t want anyone to notice that Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and Islamic fundamentalists are basically the same. They speak different languages and recite different holy words, but they all want to kill or convert everyone that isn’t part of their group.

    The opposite of fundamentalism is the ideas that came out of the enlightenment. The major cultural war of the 21st century is between the fundamentalists and the enlightenment. The possible outcomes are death for everyone or the end of fundamentalism. Right now I think both sides have about an equal chance of winning. If the Republicans maintain control of both houses of congress this fall, fundamentalism has a slightly better chance of winning. If we invade Iran, fundamentalism has a much better chance of winning. At least to the degree that you can call destroying the planet winning.

  48. Thom says:

    Barry: There have actually been some inteligent comments. Interesting enough to make it worth wading through the others.

  49. kf says:

    “The correct term is Islamic fundamentalists. Bush and others don’t want to use it because the Christian fundamentalists don’t want anyone to notice that Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and Islamic fundamentalists are basically the same.”
    -jkw

    jkw, what are you smoking?

    When was the last time you heard of a “jewish fundamentalist” offering a $1M bounty for killing an anti-semitic cartoonist? Pat Robertson has said some damn stupid things (and been ridiculed by fellow Christians for it) but to my knowledge he has never supported genocide (not even of Venezuelans).

    There have been some atrocities committed in Indonesia by so-called Christians. Those atrocities have been describes as just that. But when people in the US talk about Christian fundamentalism, they are more likely referring to a guy telling teens to abstain from sex not a guy with a bomb strapped to his ribs!

    I know we pride ourselves in the US (especially those of us who still consider “liberalism” a positive thing) for being tolerant and nondiscriminatory. But let’s wake up! There is a time to discriminate. Not all fundamentalist are equal. James Dobson may be a reactionary fool, but when Focus on the Family declares a “war” there are no bombs involved!

  50. Guy says:

    Al-jazeera posted an editorial from Dr. Abdelwahab El-Affendi, who has condemned the violent reaction against the Pope’s speech and has called for a more rational response. An excerpt from his editorial (link here):

    “This said, however, the vociferous and intemperate reactions among Muslims to the pope’s remarks remain ill advised and do more harm than good to the already damaged image of Muslims worldwide.

    In order to prove the pope wrong (a rather difficult proposition, given that he is infallible) Muslims should react to his remarks in a rational and measured way. His speech should be studied by specialists and responded to calmly on the intellectual level.

    More important, it is necessary to rebuild the proper Muslim civil institutions which could have both the capability and authority to respond effectively and in a measured way to challenges facing Muslims today.”

  51. Chopvac says:

    The opposite side of that cartoon (read: hate speech) is:

    (1) Bush denounces Iraqi WMDs…which were never there.
    (2) Bush rails against Iranians supplying weapons to Iraqis…which was never proven.
    (3) Bush bemoans Syria for hiding WMDs…which they didn’t.
    (4) Bush authorizes use of depleted uranium and white phosphorus in the name of “democracy”.

    (1) One Israeli soldier is killed by a Palestinian bomber…and ten Palestinian civilians are arrested or killed in the name of “hunting terrorists”.
    (2) One remark by an Iranian president calling for an end to the occupation is deliberately misinterpreted as a call for genocide…by all the western media
    (3) Islamic countries spend 60 years asking for a Palestinian homeland…and were ignored.
    (4) The western world turns a blind eye…to its blind eye.

    If you “think” that my comments are anti-jew pro-terrorist, you would have to be wilfully blind or supporting an anti-islam holy war.

    If you are thinking, you’ll know that both sides are as bad as each other. US and Israeli terrorism are as bad…check that, worse than islamic terrorism because they have the false veneer of “moral superiority” to them.