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	<title>Comments on: Open Thread: What Now?</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: flipspiceland</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125260</link>
		<dc:creator>flipspiceland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125260</guid>
		<description>&#039;If a man see but 3 days  ahead, he would be rich for 3,000 years&#039; .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;If a man see but 3 days  ahead, he would be rich for 3,000 years&#8217; .</p>
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		<title>By: l_emmerdeur</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125253</link>
		<dc:creator>l_emmerdeur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 04:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125253</guid>
		<description>Massive hedge fund redemptions in the next six weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Massive hedge fund redemptions in the next six weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125242</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125242</guid>
		<description>yeah AT, I totally agree w/ lb, your posts are definitely worth reading..along with Steve Barry&#039;s, I don&#039;t know how anyone could have been caught &#039;offsides&#039;..  past that, I wonder what happened to that tweedledoosh who was trying to blame TBP &#039;Bullishness&#039; for his getting knee-capped..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yeah AT, I totally agree w/ lb, your posts are definitely worth reading..along with Steve Barry&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t know how anyone could have been caught &#8216;offsides&#8217;..  past that, I wonder what happened to that tweedledoosh who was trying to blame TBP &#8216;Bullishness&#8217; for his getting knee-capped..</p>
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		<title>By: J35</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125220</link>
		<dc:creator>J35</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125220</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;What is on your minds? What are you thinking about?
What say ye?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, to be honest, I&#039;m wondering why it hasn&#039;t occurred to the U.S. government to sell some of its vast (shall we be honest and call them &quot;excessive&quot;?) holdings in the western U.S. to raise cash.   Seems like a course of action that is almost too obvious...but certainly hasn&#039;t happened yet.

See:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Public-Lands-Western-US.png&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Public Lands Held by the National Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management&lt;/a&gt;

Someone needs to get the hook and get the Sec. Treas. off the stage.  It&#039;s simply time for a little horse trading to separate assets from a land-greedy government.  No big deal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>What is on your minds? What are you thinking about?<br />
What say ye?</i></p>
<p>Well, to be honest, I&#8217;m wondering why it hasn&#8217;t occurred to the U.S. government to sell some of its vast (shall we be honest and call them &#8220;excessive&#8221;?) holdings in the western U.S. to raise cash.   Seems like a course of action that is almost too obvious&#8230;but certainly hasn&#8217;t happened yet.</p>
<p>See:  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Public-Lands-Western-US.png" rel="nofollow">Public Lands Held by the National Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management</a></p>
<p>Someone needs to get the hook and get the Sec. Treas. off the stage.  It&#8217;s simply time for a little horse trading to separate assets from a land-greedy government.  No big deal.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Tabbo</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125206</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Tabbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 19:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125206</guid>
		<description>leftback.  

Thanks for that.  One other thing that we really need to pay attention to is &quot;seasonal cycles.&quot;  With that in mind, there is very powerful evidence of seasonal cycles in the stock markets.  For whatever reason, the Nov-May time frame is a terrific time to own stocks and June to October is horrendous for investors.  I guess my point is that the seasonal cycle aspects of the stock market highly suggest some sort of prolonged rally at some point during the Nov-May timeframe.  

I think that rally will be the Major Degree Wave Four.  For instance, if we do bottom at 768, then the 38.2% retrace of the big Third Wave would take you back to 1025.  A 768 to 1025 rally would be a cool 33% return that I think is worth being long for...

And in terms of Wave analysis...a rally back to 1025 for the Major Degree Wave Four would be quite interesting...because larger degree fourth waves always seem to retrace back to areas where smaller degree wave fours complete...i.e. the 1025 level would be smack dab in the middle of where this most recent fourth wave really struggled/finished.

In terms of classical charting...this view makes a A LOT of sense.  Classical chartists will be ALL OVER a &quot;double bottom&quot; to 2002, and they&#039;ll be ALL OVER selling any kind of rally back to the 1000 zone, which clearly was a SMACK DOWN zone for bulls.

- AT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>leftback.  </p>
<p>Thanks for that.  One other thing that we really need to pay attention to is &#8220;seasonal cycles.&#8221;  With that in mind, there is very powerful evidence of seasonal cycles in the stock markets.  For whatever reason, the Nov-May time frame is a terrific time to own stocks and June to October is horrendous for investors.  I guess my point is that the seasonal cycle aspects of the stock market highly suggest some sort of prolonged rally at some point during the Nov-May timeframe.  </p>
<p>I think that rally will be the Major Degree Wave Four.  For instance, if we do bottom at 768, then the 38.2% retrace of the big Third Wave would take you back to 1025.  A 768 to 1025 rally would be a cool 33% return that I think is worth being long for&#8230;</p>
<p>And in terms of Wave analysis&#8230;a rally back to 1025 for the Major Degree Wave Four would be quite interesting&#8230;because larger degree fourth waves always seem to retrace back to areas where smaller degree wave fours complete&#8230;i.e. the 1025 level would be smack dab in the middle of where this most recent fourth wave really struggled/finished.</p>
<p>In terms of classical charting&#8230;this view makes a A LOT of sense.  Classical chartists will be ALL OVER a &#8220;double bottom&#8221; to 2002, and they&#8217;ll be ALL OVER selling any kind of rally back to the 1000 zone, which clearly was a SMACK DOWN zone for bulls.</p>
<p>- AT</p>
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		<title>By: leftback</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125202</link>
		<dc:creator>leftback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 18:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125202</guid>
		<description>AT. Please keep on posting, I always read your technical analysis with interest when I am considering my trading strategy. Compared with a lot of people who make money doing it (e.g. the guy on Market Watch, who is terrible), you have been extremely accurate. 

I am pretty much in agreement with you except on timing, although it&#039;s possible that the anticipation of the January dump might mean that the downward wave will begin early, even before the New Year. I do not plan to be long this market beyond about 12/21 or so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AT. Please keep on posting, I always read your technical analysis with interest when I am considering my trading strategy. Compared with a lot of people who make money doing it (e.g. the guy on Market Watch, who is terrible), you have been extremely accurate. </p>
<p>I am pretty much in agreement with you except on timing, although it&#8217;s possible that the anticipation of the January dump might mean that the downward wave will begin early, even before the New Year. I do not plan to be long this market beyond about 12/21 or so.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Tabbo</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125200</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Tabbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 18:02:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125200</guid>
		<description>This blog Wordpress thing couldn&#039;t interpret some of my Roman Numerals above....Wave One was 1576 - 1257.   Wave Two was 1257 - 1440.  Wave Three began at the 1440 and has not yet completed....

Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This blog Wordpress thing couldn&#8217;t interpret some of my Roman Numerals above&#8230;.Wave One was 1576 &#8211; 1257.   Wave Two was 1257 &#8211; 1440.  Wave Three began at the 1440 and has not yet completed&#8230;.</p>
<p>Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Tabbo</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125199</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Tabbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125199</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s going on here...First Rick Santelli cites some Elliot Wave stuff in reference to the Euro and then Art Cashin mentions the Elliot Wavers on Friday.  And now, we get a BR reference to the Elliot Wave crowd?!?  What&#039;s happening?  Are the kooky folks who study this technical witchcraft gaining some legitimacy this year?!?!

Anyway...I&#039;m one of those kooks and it has been an extraordinarily successful year.....

This is my call on the SP500...the 1576 high in October 2007 finished a large B wave that began in Oct 2002.  Since that point, we have been descending down in a very powerful C wave that is taking on a distinct five wave looking pattern.  Wave &lt;I&gt; was 1576 to 1257.  Wave  was 1257 to 1440.  Wave  began at the 1440 and has not yet completed.  Within that monster Wave , the Wave - I - was 1440 to 1200.  Wave - II - was 1200 to  1313.  Wave - III - was 1313 to 840.  Wave - IV - looks complete at 1007 on Election Day.   From 1007, the - I - = - V - target is 768, which would perfectly match a double bottom to 2002!

There are some accomplished and prominent Wavers that believe we have two more minor fifth waves to finish this Big Third Wave, including my mentor.  I don&#039;t share this view.  In terms of duration, the - I - = - V - on the model i&#039;m employing, comes in on December 31st, 2008!

So...freakishly enough, I have a target for the SP500 at 768 on the last day of the YEAR.  How oddly predictable that would be...persistent tax loss selling and capital raising right up to the end of they year that finishes with huge technical buying at a precise double bottom to 2002 lows?

I&#039;ll keep posting if something changes or I get price action that gives me a different view....

Have fun folks.

- AT</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s going on here&#8230;First Rick Santelli cites some Elliot Wave stuff in reference to the Euro and then Art Cashin mentions the Elliot Wavers on Friday.  And now, we get a BR reference to the Elliot Wave crowd?!?  What&#8217;s happening?  Are the kooky folks who study this technical witchcraft gaining some legitimacy this year?!?!</p>
<p>Anyway&#8230;I&#8217;m one of those kooks and it has been an extraordinarily successful year&#8230;..</p>
<p>This is my call on the SP500&#8230;the 1576 high in October 2007 finished a large B wave that began in Oct 2002.  Since that point, we have been descending down in a very powerful C wave that is taking on a distinct five wave looking pattern.  Wave <i> was 1576 to 1257.  Wave  was 1257 to 1440.  Wave  began at the 1440 and has not yet completed.  Within that monster Wave , the Wave &#8211; I &#8211; was 1440 to 1200.  Wave &#8211; II &#8211; was 1200 to  1313.  Wave &#8211; III &#8211; was 1313 to 840.  Wave &#8211; IV &#8211; looks complete at 1007 on Election Day.   From 1007, the &#8211; I &#8211; = &#8211; V &#8211; target is 768, which would perfectly match a double bottom to 2002!</p>
<p>There are some accomplished and prominent Wavers that believe we have two more minor fifth waves to finish this Big Third Wave, including my mentor.  I don&#8217;t share this view.  In terms of duration, the &#8211; I &#8211; = &#8211; V &#8211; on the model i&#8217;m employing, comes in on December 31st, 2008!</p>
<p>So&#8230;freakishly enough, I have a target for the SP500 at 768 on the last day of the YEAR.  How oddly predictable that would be&#8230;persistent tax loss selling and capital raising right up to the end of they year that finishes with huge technical buying at a precise double bottom to 2002 lows?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll keep posting if something changes or I get price action that gives me a different view&#8230;.</p>
<p>Have fun folks.</p>
<p>- AT</i></p>
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		<title>By: leftback</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125198</link>
		<dc:creator>leftback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125198</guid>
		<description>Range-bound Trader Heaven between 840 and 1000 for a while, with a possibility of a year-end rally driven by further rate cuts and monetary stimulus. A plunge in January, driven initially by further rounds of Hedge Trimming and exacerbated by the release of truly awful Q4 earnings. Hard to say how deep but I think this will be the first real panic and fear, and I&#039;d say we see a 6 handle on the SPX.

Another range-bound trader&#039;s market between 660 and 840 into the summer, followed by a breakout in late 2009 as inflation picks up in a big way and corporate bonds, the $ and Treasuries are pounded as interest rates and commodity prices are forced upwards. Housing prices continue to fall into 2010, then remain flat for a decade, Tokyo-style. 

Some of my money is in gold stocks, some in Japanese stocks, much of it remains in cash until the lion&#039;s share of the deflationary phase is more or less behind us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Range-bound Trader Heaven between 840 and 1000 for a while, with a possibility of a year-end rally driven by further rate cuts and monetary stimulus. A plunge in January, driven initially by further rounds of Hedge Trimming and exacerbated by the release of truly awful Q4 earnings. Hard to say how deep but I think this will be the first real panic and fear, and I&#8217;d say we see a 6 handle on the SPX.</p>
<p>Another range-bound trader&#8217;s market between 660 and 840 into the summer, followed by a breakout in late 2009 as inflation picks up in a big way and corporate bonds, the $ and Treasuries are pounded as interest rates and commodity prices are forced upwards. Housing prices continue to fall into 2010, then remain flat for a decade, Tokyo-style. </p>
<p>Some of my money is in gold stocks, some in Japanese stocks, much of it remains in cash until the lion&#8217;s share of the deflationary phase is more or less behind us.</p>
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		<title>By: john seger</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/open-thread-what-now/comment-page-2/#comment-125196</link>
		<dc:creator>john seger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 17:12:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=8633#comment-125196</guid>
		<description>We have an economic crisis of historic proportions and the S&amp;P 500 hasn&#039;t even breached 800 set in October 2002, which was a mild recession. Over the next few months will likely fall 30% from here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have an economic crisis of historic proportions and the S&amp;P 500 hasn&#8217;t even breached 800 set in October 2002, which was a mild recession. Over the next few months will likely fall 30% from here.</p>
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