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	<title>Comments on: Retest of the October Lows</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 19:17:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: davejphys</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126223</link>
		<dc:creator>davejphys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 00:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126223</guid>
		<description>subscriber,
The statement &quot;we are in a bear market&quot; does not really make sense. All you can say is that &quot;we have been in bear market&quot; or &quot;stocks are much lower than before&quot;. That is, you never know when the bear market has ended and when it is a bull market. It is not even clear if the terms mean anything at all if your goal is predicting future movements. That is, you can easily make simulated random walks and you can identify whether you are in a bear or bull market but we know apriori that this gives you no insight in predicting the future since in this case it is completely random.
I think people spend way too much time on these kind of things. Has anyone ever demonstrated any evidence that technical analysis has any benefit at all? I think not. Why not just read tea leaves or do astrology?
Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>subscriber,<br />
The statement &#8220;we are in a bear market&#8221; does not really make sense. All you can say is that &#8220;we have been in bear market&#8221; or &#8220;stocks are much lower than before&#8221;. That is, you never know when the bear market has ended and when it is a bull market. It is not even clear if the terms mean anything at all if your goal is predicting future movements. That is, you can easily make simulated random walks and you can identify whether you are in a bear or bull market but we know apriori that this gives you no insight in predicting the future since in this case it is completely random.<br />
I think people spend way too much time on these kind of things. Has anyone ever demonstrated any evidence that technical analysis has any benefit at all? I think not. Why not just read tea leaves or do astrology?<br />
Dave</p>
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		<title>By: davejphys</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126220</link>
		<dc:creator>davejphys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 00:35:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126220</guid>
		<description>jmborchers,
How can there be &quot;so much cash out of the market&quot;? Perhaps, you never thought about it before but when someone sells their stock and gets cash, the other party gets stock and losses their cash. Note that the amount of cash out of the market is exactly conserved and it doesn&#039;t matter at what price the transaction occurred.

So whoever the people are that you are talking about, that have &quot;so much cash&quot;, there are an equal an opposite group who have gone all in and no longer have cash to invest. So this is not a reason why stocks should go up.
Dave</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jmborchers,<br />
How can there be &#8220;so much cash out of the market&#8221;? Perhaps, you never thought about it before but when someone sells their stock and gets cash, the other party gets stock and losses their cash. Note that the amount of cash out of the market is exactly conserved and it doesn&#8217;t matter at what price the transaction occurred.</p>
<p>So whoever the people are that you are talking about, that have &#8220;so much cash&#8221;, there are an equal an opposite group who have gone all in and no longer have cash to invest. So this is not a reason why stocks should go up.<br />
Dave</p>
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		<title>By: Tom76</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126178</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom76</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126178</guid>
		<description>great call!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>great call!</p>
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		<title>By: notsofastfriend</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126102</link>
		<dc:creator>notsofastfriend</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126102</guid>
		<description>There seems to be much predictability today...  As if the tape is being painted.  Everyone and their dog is looking for a bounce.  But the dog is not in charge the Bear is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be much predictability today&#8230;  As if the tape is being painted.  Everyone and their dog is looking for a bounce.  But the dog is not in charge the Bear is.</p>
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		<title>By: constantnormal</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126084</link>
		<dc:creator>constantnormal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126084</guid>
		<description>Back to the general &quot;re-testing&quot; theme -- does anyone have a believable story that would satisfy both the Steve Barry &quot;the underling debt bubble is not being deflated&quot; point, and the technical &quot;nothing falls to zero (all at once)&quot; point?

Seems to me that the systemic problems of global debt (and US total debt in particular) have GOT to be resolved in some manner or other before we can have any kind of a sunny future.  Increasingly, it&#039;s looking like our failure to allow large institutions to die (instead absorbing them into other large institutions and making even BIGGER problems) are putting the nation at risk.

I expect to see other nations besides Iceland hit the skids in the months to come.  Credibility seems to be waning in the ability of nations to cover their institutions debt exposure.

In the face of that kind of risk, any &quot;bottom&quot; is likely to be transitory, lasting only a short while before taking the express elevator down once more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back to the general &#8220;re-testing&#8221; theme &#8212; does anyone have a believable story that would satisfy both the Steve Barry &#8220;the underling debt bubble is not being deflated&#8221; point, and the technical &#8220;nothing falls to zero (all at once)&#8221; point?</p>
<p>Seems to me that the systemic problems of global debt (and US total debt in particular) have GOT to be resolved in some manner or other before we can have any kind of a sunny future.  Increasingly, it&#8217;s looking like our failure to allow large institutions to die (instead absorbing them into other large institutions and making even BIGGER problems) are putting the nation at risk.</p>
<p>I expect to see other nations besides Iceland hit the skids in the months to come.  Credibility seems to be waning in the ability of nations to cover their institutions debt exposure.</p>
<p>In the face of that kind of risk, any &#8220;bottom&#8221; is likely to be transitory, lasting only a short while before taking the express elevator down once more.</p>
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		<title>By: constantnormal</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126074</link>
		<dc:creator>constantnormal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126074</guid>
		<description>OK, so this IS a statement that &quot;the sun will come up to-morrow...&quot;.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so this IS a statement that &#8220;the sun will come up to-morrow&#8230;&#8221;.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce N Tennessee</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126071</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce N Tennessee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126071</guid>
		<description>Constantnormal:

I have been 100% cash for over 2 years, as you have been noting from my posts.  I bought a little of this a few weeks ago when Karen and I were discussing the Baltic Dry Index and how severely it had dried up..as you know.  We were discussing dividend stocks, and also how Jim Cramer had mentioned PRGN in June, followed by a 2/3 decline, another good call, Jimbo...

One of PRGN&#039;s competitors announced a few days ago, and I took a chance knowing this and had a wonderful day...owned Prgn for 5 hours and made 23%...I bought it today, not to sell or trade, but to hold through this downturn, thinking that in a few years this could treble, maybe...it has a wonderful dividend history..

Not a lot, but I will hold it...virtually all my holdings here are cash, and this will just be my &quot;toes&quot;...as Barry says...and I assure you, I will not place any major wagers on any stocks until I am sure the bear market, and severe recession is over....

Just think of it as a &quot;Christmas Club&quot;...if it goes to zero, no harm to me....if it turns into a five bagger, still won&#039;t affect my retirement, with the amount I bought today....

Bruce in Tennessee</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Constantnormal:</p>
<p>I have been 100% cash for over 2 years, as you have been noting from my posts.  I bought a little of this a few weeks ago when Karen and I were discussing the Baltic Dry Index and how severely it had dried up..as you know.  We were discussing dividend stocks, and also how Jim Cramer had mentioned PRGN in June, followed by a 2/3 decline, another good call, Jimbo&#8230;</p>
<p>One of PRGN&#8217;s competitors announced a few days ago, and I took a chance knowing this and had a wonderful day&#8230;owned Prgn for 5 hours and made 23%&#8230;I bought it today, not to sell or trade, but to hold through this downturn, thinking that in a few years this could treble, maybe&#8230;it has a wonderful dividend history..</p>
<p>Not a lot, but I will hold it&#8230;virtually all my holdings here are cash, and this will just be my &#8220;toes&#8221;&#8230;as Barry says&#8230;and I assure you, I will not place any major wagers on any stocks until I am sure the bear market, and severe recession is over&#8230;.</p>
<p>Just think of it as a &#8220;Christmas Club&#8221;&#8230;if it goes to zero, no harm to me&#8230;.if it turns into a five bagger, still won&#8217;t affect my retirement, with the amount I bought today&#8230;.</p>
<p>Bruce in Tennessee</p>
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		<title>By: constantnormal</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126059</link>
		<dc:creator>constantnormal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126059</guid>
		<description>karen, Bruce -- I hafta ask, just to satisfy my curiosity (I searched but could not locate your prior PRGN discussion) -- exactly what is the attraction here?  

I looked at PRGN, it&#039;s a Greek shipping company, with about $600M in property plant &amp; equipment assets (presumably floating), and $300M in debt.  It has a nice dividend history, but does not appear to be a bank with limitless central bank support (unless Bernanke is shoveling money to them too).  OTOH, gross profit is VERY nice -- if it can be sustained.

International trade appears to be in &quot;shrinking-to-nothing&quot; mode, with some risk of trade barriers being raised in an ill-advised &quot;protect the home markets&quot; gambit.  If the planet does slide into a 3-7 year-long depression, their profits would seem to be at risk fer sure.

In short, this looks utterly poisonous to me, but y&#039;all all clearly not stoopid, so I must be.  Is a quick 10% return the enticement here?  And that can&#039;t be the case, as the stock will drop by the amount of the dividend tomorrow.  So I have to assume that this is a contrarian buy, on the assumption that the global economy  will lurch out of the pickle it&#039;s in within months rather than years.  Is that the rationale?

Please enlighten me -- I have no interest whatsoever in the transaction (out of my area of expertise -- obviously), just want to understand the rationale behind it.  I figure that once I stop learning, they can turn off the support machinery, I&#039;m dead.  (although of late, learning has become increasingly painful)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>karen, Bruce &#8212; I hafta ask, just to satisfy my curiosity (I searched but could not locate your prior PRGN discussion) &#8212; exactly what is the attraction here?  </p>
<p>I looked at PRGN, it&#8217;s a Greek shipping company, with about $600M in property plant &amp; equipment assets (presumably floating), and $300M in debt.  It has a nice dividend history, but does not appear to be a bank with limitless central bank support (unless Bernanke is shoveling money to them too).  OTOH, gross profit is VERY nice &#8212; if it can be sustained.</p>
<p>International trade appears to be in &#8220;shrinking-to-nothing&#8221; mode, with some risk of trade barriers being raised in an ill-advised &#8220;protect the home markets&#8221; gambit.  If the planet does slide into a 3-7 year-long depression, their profits would seem to be at risk fer sure.</p>
<p>In short, this looks utterly poisonous to me, but y&#8217;all all clearly not stoopid, so I must be.  Is a quick 10% return the enticement here?  And that can&#8217;t be the case, as the stock will drop by the amount of the dividend tomorrow.  So I have to assume that this is a contrarian buy, on the assumption that the global economy  will lurch out of the pickle it&#8217;s in within months rather than years.  Is that the rationale?</p>
<p>Please enlighten me &#8212; I have no interest whatsoever in the transaction (out of my area of expertise &#8212; obviously), just want to understand the rationale behind it.  I figure that once I stop learning, they can turn off the support machinery, I&#8217;m dead.  (although of late, learning has become increasingly painful)</p>
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		<title>By: subscriber</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126047</link>
		<dc:creator>subscriber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126047</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know if we&#039;ve hit new lows today, but it&#039;s not looking good; wasn&#039;t someone on this board calling others &quot;idiots&quot; for their continued bearish views?

Two quotes that are quite revealing:  GS at 62, and BAC at 15.  My, oh my.  I wonder if BofA has any regrets swallowing Merrill and Countrywide?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if we&#8217;ve hit new lows today, but it&#8217;s not looking good; wasn&#8217;t someone on this board calling others &#8220;idiots&#8221; for their continued bearish views?</p>
<p>Two quotes that are quite revealing:  GS at 62, and BAC at 15.  My, oh my.  I wonder if BofA has any regrets swallowing Merrill and Countrywide?</p>
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		<title>By: busterman343</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/11/retest-of-the-october-lows/comment-page-1/#comment-126041</link>
		<dc:creator>busterman343</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=9286#comment-126041</guid>
		<description>Oh barry.  Buying 2x funds in the face of the worst bear ever.  Another bear turned bull gets his face ripped off!!

~~~

&lt;b&gt;BR&lt;/b&gt;: Nice call

U.S. Stocks Surge, Gain 11% from the lows
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&amp;sid=abYNY5WnERMo&amp;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh barry.  Buying 2x funds in the face of the worst bear ever.  Another bear turned bull gets his face ripped off!!</p>
<p>~~~</p>
<p><b>BR</b>: Nice call</p>
<p>U.S. Stocks Surge, Gain 11% from the lows<br />
<a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&#038;sid=abYNY5WnERMo&#038;" rel="nofollow">http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&#038;sid=abYNY5WnERMo&#038;</a></p>
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