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	<title>Comments on: Fund of Funds Open Thread</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: babycondor</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-2/#comment-133859</link>
		<dc:creator>babycondor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:02:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133859</guid>
		<description>jckgas @ 10:16 am

...nailed it. The sheer audacity and brilliance of the scheme sends the mind reeling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jckgas @ 10:16 am</p>
<p>&#8230;nailed it. The sheer audacity and brilliance of the scheme sends the mind reeling.</p>
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		<title>By: CaptiousNut</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133804</link>
		<dc:creator>CaptiousNut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133804</guid>
		<description>They are going to *bailout* Madoff&#039;s clients.  You just watch.

They&#039;ll be touted as *pension funds*, *endowments*, and *charities*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are going to *bailout* Madoff&#8217;s clients.  You just watch.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ll be touted as *pension funds*, *endowments*, and *charities*.</p>
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		<title>By: batmando</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133801</link>
		<dc:creator>batmando</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133801</guid>
		<description>Mark McH
The other thing on my mind is why is it so hard to get a frickin’ tree to stand up in my living room?

Use a 2 x4 and a 5-gal plastic pail
Cut 2 x 4 just short enough to fit in the bottom of pail.
Screw 2 x 4 to butt end.
Trim off lower branches to clear the top of the pail.  
Insert tree in pail.
Fill pail with play sand and then add water.  
As the water level rises, position tree upright, shaking to settle sand.  
Solid as a rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark McH<br />
The other thing on my mind is why is it so hard to get a frickin’ tree to stand up in my living room?</p>
<p>Use a 2 x4 and a 5-gal plastic pail<br />
Cut 2 x 4 just short enough to fit in the bottom of pail.<br />
Screw 2 x 4 to butt end.<br />
Trim off lower branches to clear the top of the pail.<br />
Insert tree in pail.<br />
Fill pail with play sand and then add water.<br />
As the water level rises, position tree upright, shaking to settle sand.<br />
Solid as a rock.</p>
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		<title>By: msecc</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133769</link>
		<dc:creator>msecc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:53:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133769</guid>
		<description>are we going to break teh 50DMA in the SPX today after the announcement?  If so, what does that mean?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>are we going to break teh 50DMA in the SPX today after the announcement?  If so, what does that mean?</p>
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		<title>By: CPJ13</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133765</link>
		<dc:creator>CPJ13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133765</guid>
		<description>[puke] I had heard rumors of this, but was unaware of the judge&#039;s edict. I will lose my f&#039;ing mind if these people receive relief under the guise of SIPC.

Whatever. Nothing I can do about it anyway - where.will.it.end??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[puke] I had heard rumors of this, but was unaware of the judge&#8217;s edict. I will lose my f&#8217;ing mind if these people receive relief under the guise of SIPC.</p>
<p>Whatever. Nothing I can do about it anyway &#8211; where.will.it.end??</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133761</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133761</guid>
		<description>CPJ13, 

see: Madoff Investors May Be Protected By Government
Judge Says Those Duped Need Aid Under The Securites Investor Protection Act
 Timeline: U.S. Credit Crunch &amp; Financial Failures
 View Market Summaries &amp; Leading Stock Changes
 Reporting
John Slattery NEW YORK (CBS) ― Federal investigators remain at the investment offices of disgraced investor Bernard Madoff, scouring through records to learn the scope of what may be the biggest Ponzi scheme ever in the United States. 

The numbers are staggering, the losses far-reaching, but help may be on the way for investors thanks to an order for protection from a federal judge. 

The scheme was operated out of the so-called &quot;Lipstick Building&quot; on Third Avenue. Bernard Madoff Investment Securities LLC occupies three floors and may have bilked investors of $50 billion. 

Prosecutors say it was a classic Ponzi scheme. The firm paid-off earlier investors with money from new investors. It collapsed amid a nervous economy when some people wanted their money out. 

&quot;I believe he was a polished, polished, highly sophisticated schemester,&quot; said investors&#039; attorney Mark Mulholland. 

Mulholland&#039;s Long Island firm represents some 100 investors that could grow to several hundred who claim they lost millions. 

&quot;University endowments, pension funds; the scope seems to be limitless and affects little people too,&quot; says Mulholland. 

In addition to publisher Mort Zuckerman; Fred Wilpon, owner of the Mets; former Philadelphia Eagles owner Norman Braman; there were the modest investors who put their faith in Madoff. 

&quot;We lost our life savings,&quot; said investor Joan Sinkin. 

Brooklyn transplants to Florida, Sinkin and her husband Arnold said they lost 85-percent of a nearly $1 million investment. 

&quot;We were able to do things to enhance our retirement. Then in 72 hours, we were bankrupt,&quot; she said. 

It&#039;s charged at least 50 charities were bilked, including a charitable fund set-up by the family of Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey. 

Meanwhile, a federal judge on Monday threw a lifesaver to investors who may have been duped, saying they need the protection of a special government reserve fund set up to help investors at failed brokerage firms. 

U.S. District Judge Louis L. Stanton ordered that clients of Madoff&#039;s private investment business seek relief under a federal statute created to rescue cheated investors. Stanton also ordered that business be liquidated under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy court and named attorney Irvin H. Picard as trustee to oversee that process. 

Stanton signed the order after the Securities Investor Protection Corporation asked that steps be taken to protect investors in the scheme, which has ensnared several major banks and prominent figures as victims and could result in as much as $50 billion in losses. 

Congress created the SIPC in 1970 to protect investors when a brokerage firm fails and cash and securities are missing from accounts. Funds can be used to satisfy the remaining claims of each customer up to a maximum of $500,000. The figure includes a maximum of up to $100,000 on claims for cash. 

The order came just days after federal prosecutors charged Madoff with securities fraud, saying he had admitted to orchestrating a massive Ponzi scheme. Madoff is free on $10 million bail after he was charged with securities fraud last week. ...
http://wcbstv.com/business/madoff.ponzi.scheme.2.888036.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CPJ13, </p>
<p>see: Madoff Investors May Be Protected By Government<br />
Judge Says Those Duped Need Aid Under The Securites Investor Protection Act<br />
 Timeline: U.S. Credit Crunch &amp; Financial Failures<br />
 View Market Summaries &amp; Leading Stock Changes<br />
 Reporting<br />
John Slattery NEW YORK (CBS) ― Federal investigators remain at the investment offices of disgraced investor Bernard Madoff, scouring through records to learn the scope of what may be the biggest Ponzi scheme ever in the United States. </p>
<p>The numbers are staggering, the losses far-reaching, but help may be on the way for investors thanks to an order for protection from a federal judge. </p>
<p>The scheme was operated out of the so-called &#8220;Lipstick Building&#8221; on Third Avenue. Bernard Madoff Investment Securities LLC occupies three floors and may have bilked investors of $50 billion. </p>
<p>Prosecutors say it was a classic Ponzi scheme. The firm paid-off earlier investors with money from new investors. It collapsed amid a nervous economy when some people wanted their money out. </p>
<p>&#8220;I believe he was a polished, polished, highly sophisticated schemester,&#8221; said investors&#8217; attorney Mark Mulholland. </p>
<p>Mulholland&#8217;s Long Island firm represents some 100 investors that could grow to several hundred who claim they lost millions. </p>
<p>&#8220;University endowments, pension funds; the scope seems to be limitless and affects little people too,&#8221; says Mulholland. </p>
<p>In addition to publisher Mort Zuckerman; Fred Wilpon, owner of the Mets; former Philadelphia Eagles owner Norman Braman; there were the modest investors who put their faith in Madoff. </p>
<p>&#8220;We lost our life savings,&#8221; said investor Joan Sinkin. </p>
<p>Brooklyn transplants to Florida, Sinkin and her husband Arnold said they lost 85-percent of a nearly $1 million investment. </p>
<p>&#8220;We were able to do things to enhance our retirement. Then in 72 hours, we were bankrupt,&#8221; she said. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s charged at least 50 charities were bilked, including a charitable fund set-up by the family of Senator Frank Lautenberg of New Jersey. </p>
<p>Meanwhile, a federal judge on Monday threw a lifesaver to investors who may have been duped, saying they need the protection of a special government reserve fund set up to help investors at failed brokerage firms. </p>
<p>U.S. District Judge Louis L. Stanton ordered that clients of Madoff&#8217;s private investment business seek relief under a federal statute created to rescue cheated investors. Stanton also ordered that business be liquidated under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy court and named attorney Irvin H. Picard as trustee to oversee that process. </p>
<p>Stanton signed the order after the Securities Investor Protection Corporation asked that steps be taken to protect investors in the scheme, which has ensnared several major banks and prominent figures as victims and could result in as much as $50 billion in losses. </p>
<p>Congress created the SIPC in 1970 to protect investors when a brokerage firm fails and cash and securities are missing from accounts. Funds can be used to satisfy the remaining claims of each customer up to a maximum of $500,000. The figure includes a maximum of up to $100,000 on claims for cash. </p>
<p>The order came just days after federal prosecutors charged Madoff with securities fraud, saying he had admitted to orchestrating a massive Ponzi scheme. Madoff is free on $10 million bail after he was charged with securities fraud last week. &#8230;<br />
<a href="http://wcbstv.com/business/madoff.ponzi.scheme.2.888036.html" rel="nofollow">http://wcbstv.com/business/madoff.ponzi.scheme.2.888036.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: bpreader</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133758</link>
		<dc:creator>bpreader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:17:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133758</guid>
		<description>hedgefundguy,

[Barry, this is a bloody stupid topic and if I didn’t know otherwise, I would think you have an agenda. What’s the point of anything? What’s the point of a restaurant when you can cook at home? What’s the point of a supermarket when you can grow your own food? What’s the point of a taxi service when you can drive? What’s the point of Social Security when you can save and invest yourself? What’s the point of watching a movie when you can read? What’s the point of a brick and mortar store when you have the e-stores and vice-versa? What’s the point of a blog when you can do your own research?]

Honestly, 3/4 of the hedge fund SHOULD go out of business, ESPECIALLY fund of funds.    Tell me when is being the middle man a viable business model ?  Never!

A majority of hedge fund can&#039;t even navigate a bear market!!   That&#039;s shameful!!!  Tell me how you can call yourself a &quot;HEDGE&quot; fund.    Today&#039;s hedge funds are, was, nothing more than leverage gamblers who got lucky because they caught the peak of the credit bubble.  Once leverage is gone, where is the return ?  True alpha is difficult isn&#039;t ?  Take away the beta and you got zilch!

I have ex-colleagues who can&#039;t tie their own frikkin shoelaces started funds.   Where are they now ?  Trying to raise capital as their former client redeem to the point where the existing capital is nearly depleted.   Hedge fund manager ?   Give me a break!  When 10,000 funds all vying for a pie with similar strategies, example are the quant funds that blew up in this debacle because they were all long/short similar stocks,  you think everyone is as smart as they think ?  Please, hedge funds are a penny a dozen.   BTW, I am in the hedge fund industry and I see craps that are passed for gems.  Now we know who are swimming naked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hedgefundguy,</p>
<p>[Barry, this is a bloody stupid topic and if I didn’t know otherwise, I would think you have an agenda. What’s the point of anything? What’s the point of a restaurant when you can cook at home? What’s the point of a supermarket when you can grow your own food? What’s the point of a taxi service when you can drive? What’s the point of Social Security when you can save and invest yourself? What’s the point of watching a movie when you can read? What’s the point of a brick and mortar store when you have the e-stores and vice-versa? What’s the point of a blog when you can do your own research?]</p>
<p>Honestly, 3/4 of the hedge fund SHOULD go out of business, ESPECIALLY fund of funds.    Tell me when is being the middle man a viable business model ?  Never!</p>
<p>A majority of hedge fund can&#8217;t even navigate a bear market!!   That&#8217;s shameful!!!  Tell me how you can call yourself a &#8220;HEDGE&#8221; fund.    Today&#8217;s hedge funds are, was, nothing more than leverage gamblers who got lucky because they caught the peak of the credit bubble.  Once leverage is gone, where is the return ?  True alpha is difficult isn&#8217;t ?  Take away the beta and you got zilch!</p>
<p>I have ex-colleagues who can&#8217;t tie their own frikkin shoelaces started funds.   Where are they now ?  Trying to raise capital as their former client redeem to the point where the existing capital is nearly depleted.   Hedge fund manager ?   Give me a break!  When 10,000 funds all vying for a pie with similar strategies, example are the quant funds that blew up in this debacle because they were all long/short similar stocks,  you think everyone is as smart as they think ?  Please, hedge funds are a penny a dozen.   BTW, I am in the hedge fund industry and I see craps that are passed for gems.  Now we know who are swimming naked.</p>
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		<title>By: CPJ13</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133750</link>
		<dc:creator>CPJ13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:44:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133750</guid>
		<description>@ jckgas: educate me please - who &#039;covers&#039; or &#039;insures against&#039; fraud within unregulated hedge funds???</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jckgas: educate me please &#8211; who &#8216;covers&#8217; or &#8216;insures against&#8217; fraud within unregulated hedge funds???</p>
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		<title>By: CPJ13</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133749</link>
		<dc:creator>CPJ13</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133749</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m amazed the markets have completely shrugged off the strongly worded comments from Best Buy&#039;s Anderson (among other things) about a &#039;dramatic and potentially long lasting shift in consumer behavior&#039;. Do the majority of market participants really feel that a) things won&#039;t get much worse, and b) there won&#039;t be significantly cheaper buying opportunities in 2009?

Scratching my head these days. I&#039;ll make sure to tell you guys with I take off all of my shorts and puts - 48 hours after that, we will start the next huge leg down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m amazed the markets have completely shrugged off the strongly worded comments from Best Buy&#8217;s Anderson (among other things) about a &#8216;dramatic and potentially long lasting shift in consumer behavior&#8217;. Do the majority of market participants really feel that a) things won&#8217;t get much worse, and b) there won&#8217;t be significantly cheaper buying opportunities in 2009?</p>
<p>Scratching my head these days. I&#8217;ll make sure to tell you guys with I take off all of my shorts and puts &#8211; 48 hours after that, we will start the next huge leg down.</p>
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		<title>By: jckgas</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/fund-of-funds-open-thread/comment-page-1/#comment-133740</link>
		<dc:creator>jckgas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12976#comment-133740</guid>
		<description>Who is kidding who? In my opinion, this is the real story. This guy Madoff lost billions of his clients money like all the hedge funds. Those losses are not covered by any agency. Only fraud is covered. So what do you do? I think that Madoff is just a fall guy. The losses of his fund were the same as other funds, mutual and hedge and personal losses. By saying it was a Ponzi scheme (fraud) by this one guy all those rich  investors will be covered from their losses unlike the rest of the world. .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who is kidding who? In my opinion, this is the real story. This guy Madoff lost billions of his clients money like all the hedge funds. Those losses are not covered by any agency. Only fraud is covered. So what do you do? I think that Madoff is just a fall guy. The losses of his fund were the same as other funds, mutual and hedge and personal losses. By saying it was a Ponzi scheme (fraud) by this one guy all those rich  investors will be covered from their losses unlike the rest of the world. .</p>
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