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	<title>Comments on: Using TARP to Bailout Autos</title>
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		<title>By: Tom K</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133336</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:03:36 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>@Greg0658 

1. VP
2. Small business</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Greg0658 </p>
<p>1. VP<br />
2. Small business</p>
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		<title>By: debreuil</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133262</link>
		<dc:creator>debreuil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133262</guid>
		<description>Regarding the auto bailouts and the evil UAW... and I&#039;m not a fan of unions, I did some VERY rough google calculations (please correct me where I&#039;m wrong):

GM has 74000 UAW employees. They make an average of a little under $30/hour (actually the US average, and I didn&#039;t add retired people compensation). If they work 52 weeks a year full time (which they probably don&#039;t), that total comes to:

4,617,600,000 - about 4.5 billion for 47000 people per year.

Here are the top Hedge fund manager salaries for 2007 (ahh, lets not even look at how much it cost to drive the whole financial industry into the ground):
 
John Paulson  $3.7 billion
George Soros $2.9 billion
James Simons $2.8 billion
Philip Falcone $1.7 billion
Ken Griffin $1.5 billion 

And we bail out the financial industry apparently so main street doesn&#039;t have to feel the pain. All&#039;s I can say is, at least the UAW made a fucking car or two.


www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2007/db20070926_079529.htm (74000 UAW workers at GM)
dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/new-study-criticizes-hedge-fund-salaries/ (avg US salary)
richard-wilson.blogspot.com/2008/05/hedge-fund-salary.html (Hedge salaries)
www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx ($30/hour)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the auto bailouts and the evil UAW&#8230; and I&#8217;m not a fan of unions, I did some VERY rough google calculations (please correct me where I&#8217;m wrong):</p>
<p>GM has 74000 UAW employees. They make an average of a little under $30/hour (actually the US average, and I didn&#8217;t add retired people compensation). If they work 52 weeks a year full time (which they probably don&#8217;t), that total comes to:</p>
<p>4,617,600,000 &#8211; about 4.5 billion for 47000 people per year.</p>
<p>Here are the top Hedge fund manager salaries for 2007 (ahh, lets not even look at how much it cost to drive the whole financial industry into the ground):</p>
<p>John Paulson  $3.7 billion<br />
George Soros $2.9 billion<br />
James Simons $2.8 billion<br />
Philip Falcone $1.7 billion<br />
Ken Griffin $1.5 billion </p>
<p>And we bail out the financial industry apparently so main street doesn&#8217;t have to feel the pain. All&#8217;s I can say is, at least the UAW made a fucking car or two.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2007/db20070926_079529.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/sep2007/db20070926_079529.htm</a> (74000 UAW workers at GM)<br />
dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/30/new-study-criticizes-hedge-fund-salaries/ (avg US salary)<br />
richard-wilson.blogspot.com/2008/05/hedge-fund-salary.html (Hedge salaries)<br />
<a href="http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx</a> ($30/hour)</p>
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		<title>By: zero529</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133250</link>
		<dc:creator>zero529</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 03:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133250</guid>
		<description>Folks, this is The Big Picture, not Yahoo Groups.  Maybe he&#039;s just too busy now, but int he past, Barry carefully nipped purely political and ad hominem exchanges like we&#039;ve seen in some of the messages above.  We are here to talk about the economy -- the problems and possible solutions.
/rant</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks, this is The Big Picture, not Yahoo Groups.  Maybe he&#8217;s just too busy now, but int he past, Barry carefully nipped purely political and ad hominem exchanges like we&#8217;ve seen in some of the messages above.  We are here to talk about the economy &#8212; the problems and possible solutions.<br />
/rant</p>
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		<title>By: joseroncal</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133246</link>
		<dc:creator>joseroncal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 02:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133246</guid>
		<description>Since the U.S. has become a Bailout Nation, why don’t we just give them the $100 billion now, check it off Obama’s to-do list and stop wasting time and taxpayer’s money on a Congress that seems to be operating without a compass. This has already dragged on too long.  


In my opinion, any so-called Car Czar that can rescue these two companies with $14 billion, also wears a cape and can leap off tall buildings. This whole deal strikes me as a way to buy time. The auto industry has a long row to hoe before they reap any results, what with restructuring, slashing their work force, closing plants, dealing with UAW, etc not to mention actually producing cars that consumers want. 


So what exactly is on the Car Czar’s to-do list? So far it sounds like he’ll come up with some guidelines for restructuring GM and Chrysler by the first of next year. But if the auto execs can’t prove that they have a plan to reinvent themselves by Feb 15, they have to give the money back.   Give me a break! 


If the $14 billion is an emergency loan, it’s just a survival kit, so what money will be left to give back? One forecasting firm is saying that with or without the bailout, Chrysler is already a lost cause. And what restructuring plan?  Didn’t they already submit a plan?  Furthermore, under whose leadership will these terms be set? A lame duck’s or will they be enacted after Obama takes the oath?   


Apparently the bill will restrict executive compensation, but why are these two CEO&#039;s still there? I personally would have resigned a long time ago. But these poor excuses for leaders either weren’t paying attention to the mess they were creating, or they just didn’t care. Who are they going to blame now?  The reluctant consumer? Oil prices?  Japanese and Korean cars?  The economy? Who? 


I’ll tell you who’s to blame.  It’s you, the auto industry CEOs who bear the full responsibility. You were the ones who were either too complacent or else didn’t have the vision to foresee the geopolitical and economic forces that shaped competition as you continued to crank out gas-guzzling SUVs.   It is you who have not mastered the core principles of leadership or even the most basic skills required to manage.  I’m referring to the bottom-line business basics of planning, organizing, motivating, performance management, risk management, forecasting, and so on. It’s all there in Management 101! 


And I also fault the boards of directors for failing in their oversight.  Boards are charged with the responsibilities of setting broad policies and objectives, selecting, appointing, supporting and reviewing the performance of the chief executive, ensuring the availability of adequate financial resources, approving annual budgets, being accountable to the stakeholders for the organization&#039;s performance.   


These are standard duties for members of any corporate board, but they should be even more rigorously adhered to by high-profile publicly-traded corporations. I give these CEOs and their boards a failing grade on all points –they not only failed, they failed miserably! 


And what’s worse, millions of people are being affected, not only throughout the Rustbelt, but millions more across America and around the globe in places like Argentina and other countries where there are manufacturing plants.  You have let down all your stakeholders!   


Perhaps the savior in the cape, the one they will call the Car Czar, will do a better job than the two CEOs have done. And while the czar will only be a puppet position until Obama takes the reins, I’d like to suggest this as the first order of the day—fire everybody at the top of the auto industry chart who was responsible for creating so much grief. 

This comment was posted by Jose Roncal, co-author of &quot;The Big Gamble: Are you investing or speculating?&quot; - For more information, visit www.financialspeculation.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the U.S. has become a Bailout Nation, why don’t we just give them the $100 billion now, check it off Obama’s to-do list and stop wasting time and taxpayer’s money on a Congress that seems to be operating without a compass. This has already dragged on too long.  </p>
<p>In my opinion, any so-called Car Czar that can rescue these two companies with $14 billion, also wears a cape and can leap off tall buildings. This whole deal strikes me as a way to buy time. The auto industry has a long row to hoe before they reap any results, what with restructuring, slashing their work force, closing plants, dealing with UAW, etc not to mention actually producing cars that consumers want. </p>
<p>So what exactly is on the Car Czar’s to-do list? So far it sounds like he’ll come up with some guidelines for restructuring GM and Chrysler by the first of next year. But if the auto execs can’t prove that they have a plan to reinvent themselves by Feb 15, they have to give the money back.   Give me a break! </p>
<p>If the $14 billion is an emergency loan, it’s just a survival kit, so what money will be left to give back? One forecasting firm is saying that with or without the bailout, Chrysler is already a lost cause. And what restructuring plan?  Didn’t they already submit a plan?  Furthermore, under whose leadership will these terms be set? A lame duck’s or will they be enacted after Obama takes the oath?   </p>
<p>Apparently the bill will restrict executive compensation, but why are these two CEO&#8217;s still there? I personally would have resigned a long time ago. But these poor excuses for leaders either weren’t paying attention to the mess they were creating, or they just didn’t care. Who are they going to blame now?  The reluctant consumer? Oil prices?  Japanese and Korean cars?  The economy? Who? </p>
<p>I’ll tell you who’s to blame.  It’s you, the auto industry CEOs who bear the full responsibility. You were the ones who were either too complacent or else didn’t have the vision to foresee the geopolitical and economic forces that shaped competition as you continued to crank out gas-guzzling SUVs.   It is you who have not mastered the core principles of leadership or even the most basic skills required to manage.  I’m referring to the bottom-line business basics of planning, organizing, motivating, performance management, risk management, forecasting, and so on. It’s all there in Management 101! </p>
<p>And I also fault the boards of directors for failing in their oversight.  Boards are charged with the responsibilities of setting broad policies and objectives, selecting, appointing, supporting and reviewing the performance of the chief executive, ensuring the availability of adequate financial resources, approving annual budgets, being accountable to the stakeholders for the organization&#8217;s performance.   </p>
<p>These are standard duties for members of any corporate board, but they should be even more rigorously adhered to by high-profile publicly-traded corporations. I give these CEOs and their boards a failing grade on all points –they not only failed, they failed miserably! </p>
<p>And what’s worse, millions of people are being affected, not only throughout the Rustbelt, but millions more across America and around the globe in places like Argentina and other countries where there are manufacturing plants.  You have let down all your stakeholders!   </p>
<p>Perhaps the savior in the cape, the one they will call the Car Czar, will do a better job than the two CEOs have done. And while the czar will only be a puppet position until Obama takes the reins, I’d like to suggest this as the first order of the day—fire everybody at the top of the auto industry chart who was responsible for creating so much grief. </p>
<p>This comment was posted by Jose Roncal, co-author of &#8220;The Big Gamble: Are you investing or speculating?&#8221; &#8211; For more information, visit <a href="http://www.financialspeculation.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.financialspeculation.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133241</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133241</guid>
		<description>The problem is that the excess revenue from the bubble overflowed into every sector of the economy.  Unfortunately, many people built companies based on bubble revenue.  These business owners might be honest but they will suffer from their bad analytical skills and bad foresight.  THAT&#039;S capitalism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that the excess revenue from the bubble overflowed into every sector of the economy.  Unfortunately, many people built companies based on bubble revenue.  These business owners might be honest but they will suffer from their bad analytical skills and bad foresight.  THAT&#8217;S capitalism.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg0658</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133139</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg0658</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:08:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133139</guid>
		<description>Vilcabamba Says: &quot;Next time the rest of the country should tell them to go screw themselves. Is this how we want to play this game?&quot;

If this &quot;no soup for you&quot; game is going to play out as the norm ... then yes.

PAYGO and BALANCE. You ready for that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vilcabamba Says: &#8220;Next time the rest of the country should tell them to go screw themselves. Is this how we want to play this game?&#8221;</p>
<p>If this &#8220;no soup for you&#8221; game is going to play out as the norm &#8230; then yes.</p>
<p>PAYGO and BALANCE. You ready for that?</p>
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		<title>By: jc</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133128</link>
		<dc:creator>jc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133128</guid>
		<description>The Senate repubs are writing a morality play with their filibuster power. The UAW and BIG3 are profligate wastrels and deserve to be shut down. Paulson lied &amp; deceived them about the scope of bailouts and they should filibuster any additional TARP funds. We can all huddle around the campfire in our hairshirts and  recite Ayn Rand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Senate repubs are writing a morality play with their filibuster power. The UAW and BIG3 are profligate wastrels and deserve to be shut down. Paulson lied &amp; deceived them about the scope of bailouts and they should filibuster any additional TARP funds. We can all huddle around the campfire in our hairshirts and  recite Ayn Rand.</p>
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		<title>By: gloppie</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133124</link>
		<dc:creator>gloppie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 14:01:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133124</guid>
		<description>&quot;Thus the capitalist class will not adopt state capitalism became of its own economic difficulties. Monopoly capitalism, particularly when using the state as a fascist dictatorship, can secure for itself most of the advantages of a single organization without giving up its own rule over production. There will be a different situation, however, when it feels itself so far pressed by the working class that the old form of private capitalism can no longer be saved. Then state capitalism will be the way out: the preservation of exploitation in the form of a “socialistic” society, where the “most capable leaders,” the “best brains,” and the “great men of action” will direct production and the masses will work obediently under their command. Whether or not this condition is called state capitalism or state socialism makes no difference in principle. Whether one refers to the first term “State capitalism” as being a ruling and exploiting state bureaucracy or to the second term “State socialism” as a necessary staff of officials who as dutiful and obedient servants of the community share the work with the laborers, the difference in the final analysis lies in the amount of the salaries and the qualitative measure of influence in the party connections.&quot;

Anton Pannekoek
State Capitalism and Dictatorship 1936</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Thus the capitalist class will not adopt state capitalism became of its own economic difficulties. Monopoly capitalism, particularly when using the state as a fascist dictatorship, can secure for itself most of the advantages of a single organization without giving up its own rule over production. There will be a different situation, however, when it feels itself so far pressed by the working class that the old form of private capitalism can no longer be saved. Then state capitalism will be the way out: the preservation of exploitation in the form of a “socialistic” society, where the “most capable leaders,” the “best brains,” and the “great men of action” will direct production and the masses will work obediently under their command. Whether or not this condition is called state capitalism or state socialism makes no difference in principle. Whether one refers to the first term “State capitalism” as being a ruling and exploiting state bureaucracy or to the second term “State socialism” as a necessary staff of officials who as dutiful and obedient servants of the community share the work with the laborers, the difference in the final analysis lies in the amount of the salaries and the qualitative measure of influence in the party connections.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anton Pannekoek<br />
State Capitalism and Dictatorship 1936</p>
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		<title>By: gloppie</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133123</link>
		<dc:creator>gloppie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 13:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133123</guid>
		<description>&quot;Thus the capitalist class will not adopt state capitalism became of its own economic difficulties. Monopoly capitalism, particularly when using the state as a fascist dictatorship, can secure for itself most of the advantages of a single organization without giving up its own rule over production. There will be a different situation, however, when it feels itself so far pressed by the working class that the old form of private capitalism can no longer be saved. Then state capitalism will be the way out: the preservation of exploitation in the form of a “socialistic” society, where the “most capable leaders,” the “best brains,” and the “great men of action” will direct production and the masses will work obediently under their command. Whether or not this condition is called state capitalism or state socialism makes no difference in principle. Whether one refers to the first term “State capitalism” as being a ruling and exploiting state bureaucracy or to the second term “State socialism” as a necessary staff of officials who as dutiful and obedient servants of the community share the work with the laborers, the difference in the final analysis lies in the amount of the salaries and the qualitative measure of influence in the party connections.&quot;

Anton Pannekoek
State Capitalism and Dictatorship, 1936</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Thus the capitalist class will not adopt state capitalism became of its own economic difficulties. Monopoly capitalism, particularly when using the state as a fascist dictatorship, can secure for itself most of the advantages of a single organization without giving up its own rule over production. There will be a different situation, however, when it feels itself so far pressed by the working class that the old form of private capitalism can no longer be saved. Then state capitalism will be the way out: the preservation of exploitation in the form of a “socialistic” society, where the “most capable leaders,” the “best brains,” and the “great men of action” will direct production and the masses will work obediently under their command. Whether or not this condition is called state capitalism or state socialism makes no difference in principle. Whether one refers to the first term “State capitalism” as being a ruling and exploiting state bureaucracy or to the second term “State socialism” as a necessary staff of officials who as dutiful and obedient servants of the community share the work with the laborers, the difference in the final analysis lies in the amount of the salaries and the qualitative measure of influence in the party connections.&#8221;</p>
<p>Anton Pannekoek<br />
State Capitalism and Dictatorship, 1936</p>
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		<title>By: DL</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/using-tarp-to-bailout-autos/comment-page-2/#comment-133108</link>
		<dc:creator>DL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 07:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=12804#comment-133108</guid>
		<description>Tom K   @ 6:06

I have just one criticism of what you wrote.       You’ve got to get yourself a DVR.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom K   @ 6:06</p>
<p>I have just one criticism of what you wrote.       You’ve got to get yourself a DVR.</p>
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