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	<title>Comments on: What Does Regulation Regulate?</title>
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	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: bondjel</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-2/#comment-135904</link>
		<dc:creator>bondjel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135904</guid>
		<description>I984 is great but if you haven&#039;t read it you must read Orwell&#039;s classic short essay &quot;Politics and the English Language&quot;; you owe it to yourself. Here it is on web free:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I984 is great but if you haven&#8217;t read it you must read Orwell&#8217;s classic short essay &#8220;Politics and the English Language&#8221;; you owe it to yourself. Here it is on web free:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: mikaeel</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-2/#comment-135465</link>
		<dc:creator>mikaeel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135465</guid>
		<description>Regulations are for the people who don&#039;t have connections. If you&#039;re connected to the regulators you can do want you want as long as your competition, the regulators adversaries or the general public doesn&#039;t find out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regulations are for the people who don&#8217;t have connections. If you&#8217;re connected to the regulators you can do want you want as long as your competition, the regulators adversaries or the general public doesn&#8217;t find out.</p>
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		<title>By: scepticus</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-2/#comment-135300</link>
		<dc:creator>scepticus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 12:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135300</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to offer the suggestion that while all this debate re markets, regulation, ideology etc is the flavour of the moment, it&#039;s worth taking a step back and considering the Big Picture (the concept, not the blog).

Economics as a school of thought and a social science has existed for a blink of an eye in human historical terms. Its existence has also happened to coincide with the final stages  (probably) of an upward stage in a secular population cycle. These cycles show up with a period of 200-300 years, with the upward stages characterised by stability and relative prosperity and the downward trend in population characterised by instability and declining prosperity. The upward trend in population density reverses once the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment - which in turn is defined purely by the population density and the technology available to extract resources (note this is not an &#039;environmental&#039; or &#039;ecological&#039; argument, simply a long standing fact of human existence).  

During the upward trend of increasing prosperity it is generally the case that  adding another human increases everyones prosperity via economy of scale and additional specialisation. During the downward trend, adding another human actually decreases prosperity. How valid will currently &#039;accepted&#039; economic models developed during a secular bull market in population and human utility that has lasted 500 years be once that market turns bearish?  

During the downtrend, which may well have begun already, the study of the application of power on a vast scale (see machiavelli, confucius) will be increasingly more relevant than the study of economics and markets. The simple truth is that what the anglo-american governments decide to do or not to do regarding market regulation is going to have little effect on the way the world works in 50 years time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to offer the suggestion that while all this debate re markets, regulation, ideology etc is the flavour of the moment, it&#8217;s worth taking a step back and considering the Big Picture (the concept, not the blog).</p>
<p>Economics as a school of thought and a social science has existed for a blink of an eye in human historical terms. Its existence has also happened to coincide with the final stages  (probably) of an upward stage in a secular population cycle. These cycles show up with a period of 200-300 years, with the upward stages characterised by stability and relative prosperity and the downward trend in population characterised by instability and declining prosperity. The upward trend in population density reverses once the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment &#8211; which in turn is defined purely by the population density and the technology available to extract resources (note this is not an &#8216;environmental&#8217; or &#8216;ecological&#8217; argument, simply a long standing fact of human existence).  </p>
<p>During the upward trend of increasing prosperity it is generally the case that  adding another human increases everyones prosperity via economy of scale and additional specialisation. During the downward trend, adding another human actually decreases prosperity. How valid will currently &#8216;accepted&#8217; economic models developed during a secular bull market in population and human utility that has lasted 500 years be once that market turns bearish?  </p>
<p>During the downtrend, which may well have begun already, the study of the application of power on a vast scale (see machiavelli, confucius) will be increasingly more relevant than the study of economics and markets. The simple truth is that what the anglo-american governments decide to do or not to do regarding market regulation is going to have little effect on the way the world works in 50 years time.</p>
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		<title>By: Jojo99</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-2/#comment-135294</link>
		<dc:creator>Jojo99</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 11:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135294</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;KJ Foehr said December 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pm &quot;... But regulations and strong internal controls implemented as a result of regulations, can and will in many cases prevent someone from breaking the law.

Should white-collar criminals be coddled? Certainly not; they should be put in &quot;general population&quot; with the rest of the convicts. But exacting harsher punishments is inadequate to prevent future crimes, IMO.&lt;/i&gt;

Regulations and laws are worthless when they are not strongly and consistently enforced. The only sure way to discourage disobedience of laws and regulations is to make the penalties severe enough that few or [hopefully] none would want to risk the consequences if caught.

Though not palatable to PC America, for financial crimes, in my mind that would mean taking away ALL their assets in any form AND public punishment, ranging from the stocks to the guillotine (Madoff, etc.), depending on the severity of violation plus mandatory prison time (if still alive). They would go to a regular prison also, no white-collar paradise where they can lounge around and play tennis or golf.

And their punishment must be put on a fast track so that it occurs soon, while their deeds are still fresh in the minds of the public.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>KJ Foehr said December 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 pm &#8220;&#8230; But regulations and strong internal controls implemented as a result of regulations, can and will in many cases prevent someone from breaking the law.</p>
<p>Should white-collar criminals be coddled? Certainly not; they should be put in &#8220;general population&#8221; with the rest of the convicts. But exacting harsher punishments is inadequate to prevent future crimes, IMO.</i></p>
<p>Regulations and laws are worthless when they are not strongly and consistently enforced. The only sure way to discourage disobedience of laws and regulations is to make the penalties severe enough that few or [hopefully] none would want to risk the consequences if caught.</p>
<p>Though not palatable to PC America, for financial crimes, in my mind that would mean taking away ALL their assets in any form AND public punishment, ranging from the stocks to the guillotine (Madoff, etc.), depending on the severity of violation plus mandatory prison time (if still alive). They would go to a regular prison also, no white-collar paradise where they can lounge around and play tennis or golf.</p>
<p>And their punishment must be put on a fast track so that it occurs soon, while their deeds are still fresh in the minds of the public.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-2/#comment-135290</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 09:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135290</guid>
		<description>KJ, 

this: &quot;I am surprised you would find advocating compassionate help “maybe worse”. &quot;
wasn&#039;t the point I was trying to make.

I was saying: maybe worse would be that: any thief could claim to be starving, if given : &quot;Yes, but you are free to define it that way, and so am I. Correctness, like truth, depends on perception and interpretation of the “facts”&quot; as the set point.

Transor Z&#039;s point-out: “Sir, if you would debate with me, first define your terms.” 

Is what&#039;s at play..

past that, I do suggest you do some reading @ www.mises.org  I&#039;m fairly sure you&#039;ll find that your assumptions are mistaken..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>KJ, </p>
<p>this: &#8220;I am surprised you would find advocating compassionate help “maybe worse”. &#8221;<br />
wasn&#8217;t the point I was trying to make.</p>
<p>I was saying: maybe worse would be that: any thief could claim to be starving, if given : &#8220;Yes, but you are free to define it that way, and so am I. Correctness, like truth, depends on perception and interpretation of the “facts”&#8221; as the set point.</p>
<p>Transor Z&#8217;s point-out: “Sir, if you would debate with me, first define your terms.” </p>
<p>Is what&#8217;s at play..</p>
<p>past that, I do suggest you do some reading @ <a href="http://www.mises.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.mises.org</a>  I&#8217;m fairly sure you&#8217;ll find that your assumptions are mistaken..</p>
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		<title>By: bcasey</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-1/#comment-135285</link>
		<dc:creator>bcasey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 05:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135285</guid>
		<description>Tanzor Z, I&#039;m not a football fan and probably not smart enough on the subject to comment believably but I do like your analogy.  The problem I see in our current scenario is that the stealing is unregulated but the fashioning of new skulls is severely regulated. Without the ability to make new skulls it is not really a free market, and how are free markets supposed to work without supply and demand?

Back to the original subject, I loved George Orwell&#039;s 1984, as well as David Bowie&#039;s Diamond Dogs, But for hard core Sci-fi disfunctional future literature John Brunner is the best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tanzor Z, I&#8217;m not a football fan and probably not smart enough on the subject to comment believably but I do like your analogy.  The problem I see in our current scenario is that the stealing is unregulated but the fashioning of new skulls is severely regulated. Without the ability to make new skulls it is not really a free market, and how are free markets supposed to work without supply and demand?</p>
<p>Back to the original subject, I loved George Orwell&#8217;s 1984, as well as David Bowie&#8217;s Diamond Dogs, But for hard core Sci-fi disfunctional future literature John Brunner is the best.</p>
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		<title>By: pvd</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-1/#comment-135257</link>
		<dc:creator>pvd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135257</guid>
		<description>In response to Transor Z above:

What we have seen the last few years hasn&#039;t been a case of no rules, it has been a case of bad officiating.  In a football game the refs keep the players honest, but who keeps the refs honest?  The fact that their decisions are made in front of everyone at the game, watching on TV, and recorded to be played over and over.  A mistake here or there is understandable, but what if the ref were to continue to refuse to call any penalties at all against one team regardless of their infractions of the rules. ?

So there is no game without rules, but transparency is absolutely necessary to keep the regulators honest. 

It appears that finance is mostly about one actor obfuscating real risk to convince another that it&#039;s not as risky as it really is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Transor Z above:</p>
<p>What we have seen the last few years hasn&#8217;t been a case of no rules, it has been a case of bad officiating.  In a football game the refs keep the players honest, but who keeps the refs honest?  The fact that their decisions are made in front of everyone at the game, watching on TV, and recorded to be played over and over.  A mistake here or there is understandable, but what if the ref were to continue to refuse to call any penalties at all against one team regardless of their infractions of the rules. ?</p>
<p>So there is no game without rules, but transparency is absolutely necessary to keep the regulators honest. </p>
<p>It appears that finance is mostly about one actor obfuscating real risk to convince another that it&#8217;s not as risky as it really is.</p>
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		<title>By: AGG</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-1/#comment-135255</link>
		<dc:creator>AGG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135255</guid>
		<description>When someone starts to rave about the free market, I sometimes wonder if that&#039;s another Orwellian term. Why don&#039;t they call it &quot;Cheapest Market&quot;? After all, nothing is free at the market. So if, theoretically. the best (lowest, cheapest, etc.) prices for goods and services can be obtained at an unregulated market, they should call it the Cheap Market, right? Did you know that some libertarians call themselves anarchists? They don&#039;t talk about that machine gun they have in their basement and the ammo. Yep they want a &quot;free market&quot; or maybe a free-for-all with their machine gun? Alpine slopes as level playing fields and all that sort of thing. We get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When someone starts to rave about the free market, I sometimes wonder if that&#8217;s another Orwellian term. Why don&#8217;t they call it &#8220;Cheapest Market&#8221;? After all, nothing is free at the market. So if, theoretically. the best (lowest, cheapest, etc.) prices for goods and services can be obtained at an unregulated market, they should call it the Cheap Market, right? Did you know that some libertarians call themselves anarchists? They don&#8217;t talk about that machine gun they have in their basement and the ammo. Yep they want a &#8220;free market&#8221; or maybe a free-for-all with their machine gun? Alpine slopes as level playing fields and all that sort of thing. We get it.</p>
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		<title>By: AGG</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-1/#comment-135249</link>
		<dc:creator>AGG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135249</guid>
		<description>Barry, 
I suggest to you and all commenters here  try this thought exercise: Imagine that every person in the world is born with a force field. You can&#039;t hurt them in any way. If you give them poison to eat the force field will neutralize it. A thousand people cannot hurt an individual person. No one can stop anyone from taking anything such as food, etc. Now THAT, is a free market. No libertarian would agree to it. As a matter of fact, no person with a racial, societal, class or monetary advantage would like that idea. Humanity without responsible hierarchy is chaos. The only thing that works is rule based society where everyone has to obey the same rules. Fat chance. But we can dream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry,<br />
I suggest to you and all commenters here  try this thought exercise: Imagine that every person in the world is born with a force field. You can&#8217;t hurt them in any way. If you give them poison to eat the force field will neutralize it. A thousand people cannot hurt an individual person. No one can stop anyone from taking anything such as food, etc. Now THAT, is a free market. No libertarian would agree to it. As a matter of fact, no person with a racial, societal, class or monetary advantage would like that idea. Humanity without responsible hierarchy is chaos. The only thing that works is rule based society where everyone has to obey the same rules. Fat chance. But we can dream.</p>
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		<title>By: AGG</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12/what-does-regulation-regulate/comment-page-1/#comment-135242</link>
		<dc:creator>AGG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=13393#comment-135242</guid>
		<description>Barry,
Yes, of course corrupton of language is key to manipulation of thought. Taking bellicous, predatory, henious practices and sanitizing them by giving them smoothy names is what modern PR is all about. Take that innocuous phrase, &quot;MARKET SHARE&quot;. Share? You&#039;ve got to be kidding. Businesses don&#039;t share. They scrap and fight for every bit of the action. The correct phrase would be MARKET TAKE. But then, that sounds too much like a mafia term. But it really is all about take. Nobody is &quot;sharing&quot; a goddamn thing. The crux of the matter is the constant, unceasing desire of ambitious people to control other people&#039;s actions. Think for yourself and define your terms accurately and you won&#039;t have a problem. Define yourself by ideology or some &quot;ism&quot; and a whole package of smoothy bullshit terms from that particular &quot;ism&quot; will cloud your  mind and lead you to make many gross errors of logic and reason for the benefit of those that push that particular ideology or &quot;ism&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry,<br />
Yes, of course corrupton of language is key to manipulation of thought. Taking bellicous, predatory, henious practices and sanitizing them by giving them smoothy names is what modern PR is all about. Take that innocuous phrase, &#8220;MARKET SHARE&#8221;. Share? You&#8217;ve got to be kidding. Businesses don&#8217;t share. They scrap and fight for every bit of the action. The correct phrase would be MARKET TAKE. But then, that sounds too much like a mafia term. But it really is all about take. Nobody is &#8220;sharing&#8221; a goddamn thing. The crux of the matter is the constant, unceasing desire of ambitious people to control other people&#8217;s actions. Think for yourself and define your terms accurately and you won&#8217;t have a problem. Define yourself by ideology or some &#8220;ism&#8221; and a whole package of smoothy bullshit terms from that particular &#8220;ism&#8221; will cloud your  mind and lead you to make many gross errors of logic and reason for the benefit of those that push that particular ideology or &#8220;ism&#8221;.</p>
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