Mish vs Peter Schiff
On Sunday night, Mike Shedlock lobbed a hand grenade Peter Schiff’s way (here, and mirrored here).
Around late 2008, some PR flacks were circulating a Schiff’s greatest hits — short excerpts of his appearances on major media. It was apparent to me that these heavily edited clips were not coming from random readers, but rather, were part of an organized PR campaign.I do not know if this annoying guerilla marketing approach is what motivated Mish to write his takedown, but it sure made me come close several times.
Regardless of the motivation, in a meticulous, fact-based post, Shedlock highlighted the poor investment returns Schiff has generated in 2008. Through the grapevine, I have heard that Schiff was livid, and is threatening a lawsuit.
Too late: I understand more fireworks are coming, via a major media outlet that picked up the specific details from Mish, and independently verified them. Look for a major story soon (possibly as early as Weds/Thur). As is so often the case these days, a blogger discovered something newsworthy, and the MSM picked up on it afterwards.
~~~
In the past, I defended Schiff against a pretty shoddy piece of hit journalism by Forbes. It was a case of pretty weak investigative reporting — and I expect much better from Forbes. I have also highlighted the works of Blog Spotlight: Mish’s Global Economic Trend Analysis (November 30th, 2006, 7:00PM).
I’m not sure you call me neutral — but I am certainly even handed in this case. However, I simply cannot find anything in Mish’s blog post that is actionable. Besides, who would want to open themselves up to the sort of discovery process slander/libel litigation would entail for the plaintiff. It would make a colonoscopy look pleasant by comparison . . .
January 27th, 2009 at 9:07 pm
If I was Mish, I would do a post titled: Dear Peter Schiff, Please Sue Me . . .
January 27th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Has anyone come forward yet to claim that they beat my 77% return last year all-in QID? Has anyone also claimed that on 1/2/08 or earlier, they predicted last year would likely be the worst year in S&P history (came pretty close)?
January 27th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
This was one of the biggest beat downs I have ever seen. Mish just took Schiff’s lunch money and dropped an atomic wedgie on him for good measure.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:21 pm
Assuming Mish has his facts straight (and I’m betting he does), Schiff’s got no case. Schiff had be better off not making an issue of this or it will further illuminate his mistakes.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Im torn here. I actually considered writing the same exact post about Schiff a month ago, but I refrained. Part of this business is understanding how to be wrong. And all investors are wrong a lot. These personal hit jobs don do anyone any good. It’s good to be accountable, but being called out by someone else in the industry doesn’t sit well with me. Isn’t that what Charlie Gasparino is for?
January 27th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
SB,
Great job.
So what about now? Does this stimulus bill and FDIC “bad” bank mean the bottom is in?
TIA
January 27th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
I hear you, TPC, but if that person goes around arrogantly pounding his chest about how right he is (ahem, Schiff), then he’s fair game for those who wish to reveal the full truth, however much it may hurt.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Austrian cat fight! Woohoo!
January 27th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Mannwich: I hear you 100%. I’m not saying schiff didn’t deserve to be called out, but I would rather see the hit jobs done by journalists and not other money managers….
January 27th, 2009 at 9:36 pm
@TPC: Maybe CNBC should have unleashed Charlie G. on him?
@KJ: Not that my opinion is worth a bucket of warm spit, but I think we’ll probably see a rally starting tomorrow (futures up pretty nicely). However, it will be just like all the other short-lived gov’t-induced “rallies” and will lose steam again when reality sets in again the fundamentals worsen further. This is the treadmill we’re on. Markets lose steam, sell off (want to go much lower), the gov’t steps in and games things for a short while, the market rallies, CNBC, Jim Cramer, and other book-talkers call “the bottom”, and then the market sells off again. Rinse, lather, repeat.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
@KJ:
GDP was 14.4 Trillion annualized last qtr. An 800 Billion stimulus is not going to solve the problem of wealth and demand destruction…it is pushing on a string. Banks are not lending because nobody can borrow. This weekend, I concluded the depression is on now…so many formerly high flying friends are now in terror f losing their jobs…watched 60 Minutes showing whole towns in depressions. Housing still has 40% to decline (today’s Case Shiller is following right on my target). And it is global this time…see the photos of blocks in London where every house seems to be for sale? This is the global synchronized bust. Bottom? I think not. If the market would ever finally reach at least the bottom of its long-term uptrend, it would be now…and that is around Dow 4000.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
@Mannwich @9:39p,
Like PS, you are making a prediction, like we all like to do…
http://mast-economy.blogspot.com/2009/01/bull-run-begins-this-week.html
But I was wrong, and you may be wrong in your analysis of run, then sell, run then sell.
The difference with PS is he fails to admit he’s wrong. I not at all for bashing folks, but I am all for holding people accountable for their words and actions.
GNE
January 27th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
@Good News Economist: No, the difference between me and Schiff is I don’t manage other peoples’ money for a living. Big distinction, no? I’m also happy to admit when I’m wrong, which is quite a bit, thank you very much (although I’ve been pretty accurate about how things would play out since last November).
I’m not bashing Schiff but am saying that anyone who is a public figure and pounds one’s chest the way he does (and hammers others) is more than fair game for open, honest critique by other people.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
How many people were in the dollar trash line? And decoupling. and commodities. AS a kid I weeded soybeans — yes, I have a eye for button weed; therefore I knew they were not worth $15/bushel. That using corn for ethanol had nothing to do with price increase.( china is currently exporting corn ). Also the Peak Oil prior to this Peak Oil cost me the first job I needed, so this version of Peak Oil has been enjoyable though literally unreal. Do you know what a pain in the ass natural gas is when your drilling oil? And the stuff won’t go away.
And so in July I knew the dollar wasn’t going anywhere but up or sideway because commodities could not be held up any longer. So I don’t blame Schiff so much for hanging on to his thoughts, expensive ones in today’s market — try to talk to Peak Oil — or listen to folks who believe in supply and demand.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
To be fair to Schiff he said his foreign investments are long term and if the dollar crashes as he predicts he may be proven right in a year or two.
January 27th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Mish’s assessment of Schiff’s forecasting record was fair and appropriate, although I was surprised at Mish’s candor when I first read it.
Mish’s blog is definitely in the top 5 (of financial blogs).
January 27th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
Here is an anecdotal economic report from Lexington, KY. I, stupidly, walked from my hotel through a freezing rain storm to a Taco Bell for a burrito. While inside, I witnessed the only two drive-thru customers drive off without ordering because the credit card machine wasn’t working. They knew it wasn’t working because that was the first thing the counter girl said into the microphone when they pulled up.
I didn’t even know you could USE a credit card at a Taco Bell…
January 27th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
you know I could never get into this Mish guy, just couldn’t take the whole Mish (I use the first two letters of my names) thing. I don’t know what it was, just didn’t go to the site.
I went to his site to read this Peter Schiff thing, it was good, but more importantly I read a lot of other things on the site and I now have respect for Mish. What I like best is that he is an investment manager that is willing to be flexible and won’t just stick to a single strategy, whether it be something like Schiff’s or the buy and hold crowd.
I think that is great and sad at the same time, he makes comments on his site about moving money to cash but this will never ever happen on the street, can’t charge any fees on cash.
let’s see if we break above 850 tom. I guess that could be interesting, if only for a little while, which anymore might only be a few hours.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
We now have video of Schiff actually reading Mish’s post:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5BpzmTIZMU
January 27th, 2009 at 10:09 pm
@Ventura2012: In the long run we’re all dead. To me, that “long term” crap is the typical cop out by an investment manager when he/she is blatantly wrong on a particular call. It buys him/her time to eventually be right. Look, I actually like Schiff but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong. This tendency by most people today to never admit when their wrong is beyond tiresome.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
Mish is an artisan with commentary, and quite funny.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:11 pm
wnsrfr,
not to be rude but where have you been? credit/debit has been available for what seems like forever at those types of places. Maybe you just don’t eat fast food often, which is not a bad thing at all.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Strict New Keynesianism tells you only cash or gold right now and shift to all cash in a few months (be careful).
January 27th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Tried to post this before, but failed.
Video of Schiff reading Mish’s post:
youtube – dot – com/watch?v=A5BpzmTIZMU
January 27th, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Ventura2012,
seems like you might be missing the point. When you manage other people’s money being early and then eventually right is not being right at all. Look at the statement Mish posted in that link. Even if schiff is correct in one or two or ten years, how long is it going to take to just get back to break-even on investments that were down 90!
If, when we do get out of this we are in a single digit return type environment, which I suspect, it could take a lifetime, one wrong year and a lifetime to try to get it back. It will come as no consolation to his clients that he was eventually correct.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
Down goes Frazier!
January 27th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Mannwich,
You are right that is a big difference… and the biggest issue for me is him not admitting he was wrong when making a prediction. He should be held accountable by the blogging community and the larger media if necessary…
GNE
January 27th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
@manwich & ben
Yeah if you took Schiffs recommendations at the top you are hurting, but he has been touting gold and silver for the last 7 years. Schiff was early on housing and looked bad for awhile, but he was proven correct and anyone who was betting against him lost money in the long-term. Just 6 months ago commodities were at all time highs, he had been touting for quite some time. In 6 more months they could be screaming back to all time highs for all we know, I am just saying because the guy has had a tough 6 months I would not write him off.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
OK – So he gets to tell the world what has been reported in other places, that schiff was wrong on his call for the dollar. Seem now he just wants to be the de-facto counter-point to Schiff, by hitching his wagon to Schiff. That just seems like a short cut. Google the word peter and if you have suggestion completion turned on you’ll see that Schiff is the third entry. Now try doing the same for Mike Shedlock. You’ll be lucky to get anything up completing his name. My point is more people know who Schiff is and this Mish guy wants to horn in and promote his own ideas. My personal take on Schiff is that he’s a bearish on the US, fine if is wrong time will tell. Let the guy be and make your (Mish) own case and form your own followership. –Jeeze
January 27th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
I’ll write him off. He never knew what he was talking about.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
Schiff is a bit of a whiny narcissist, but I distinctly remember him during the Ron Paul “Money Bomb” timeframe saying how the bad economy would lead to a GOP defeat and then the Democrats would be even worse.
Early; but not wrong yet.
Who was predicting 35$ oil and the 10-year at 2% anytime in the near future?
January 27th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Ventura2012,
yes yes, I understood exactly what you were saying but all those gains in gold were just washed away by the other losses in the account. I suppose that statement that Mish put on were full of investments that he bought 7 years ago? How then do you explain the claims that clients of Schiff’s say they lost 40-70%, that means he took his own advice at the top!
Like mannwich, I wish all of us would demand accountability for people like Schiff.
You say, “if you took his recs at the top”
Look, when you publish books titled bull moves in bear markets and you make bold statements such as his and then never define an exit strategy you can take a good bashing for that. further, you had better be pretty damn confident that by the time it gets published you are still o.k. telling people to do that, or was that book only for entertainment purposes?
You can argue that commodities were at an all time high 6 months ago but was that a fundamental thing going on there or just nonsense, Peter frames it as fundamental. He says it like, if this happens, then this will occur and as result you should own X without ever planning to sell. It’s a fancy way of selling buy and hold on a new “asset class”
I have no soft spot in my heart for guys like Peter Schiff, he gets on tv and acts like an arrogant bastard. Treating other people like fools (even if you are correct ) earns you 0 respect in my book.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Just seems like he is trying to take his clients.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
@ TheSpartan: LOL!!!
January 27th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
raycharles,
for real? so now if you aren’t well known in the public you just an attention seeker and couldn’t possibly be correct. Only the people who show up on a google search know anything about the market.
I just googled Steve Barry and nothing happened, but last I checked he did alright last year.
Do work at a bank by any chance?
January 27th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
@Mannwich,
Did you see the Kass article on buffett at thestreet today?
Sad, maybe he is the one finally getting caught without the suit when the tide goes out.
For some reason i feel bad for WB but I know I shouldn’t, I’m pretty sure he’s got enough money that he’ll be ok for the rest of his days.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
This is off topic but maybe not a little bit. New Deal Democrat is writing a series analyzing the Kasriel indicator for the 1920’s and 1930’s. He found the raw data by which to calculate and thus has raw data, graphs and analysis to see if it works well as a recession indicator during this time period.
The series is over on The Economic Populist
part I
http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/economic-indicators-during
part II
http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/economic-indicators-during-roaring-twenties-and-great-depression-ii
I think it’s some really interesting research, especially for a blog post and deserves economists reviewing it.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
@Steve Barry
Nice extension of the decreasing slop of the Case-Shiller graph. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that when market comes crashing down it goes fast. My issue would be, why would you imagine that it levels off nicely at an index of 110? If this is truly the crisis of a life time (my first was in the beginning of the 90’s) wouldn’t you expect it to go below 100 for a while. I predict that once the bottom is reach, the house index will stay constant for at least 3 years until it slowly creeps up again.
Hard core technical ANALysis!
January 27th, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Steve Barry Says:
January 27th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
Has anyone come forward yet to claim that they beat my 77% return last year all-in QID? Has anyone also claimed that on 1/2/08 or earlier, they predicted last year would likely be the worst year in S&P history (came pretty close)?
Steve, is it possible that people that just don’t like to advertise it, maybe not to jinx it. OK, fine…
In 2008, I made 177% profit in tax-deferred (old 401K) account
In taxable account (where I used options, and have moved significant amounts of money in and out the account), it i nearly double that.
Interestingly enough, even though I was short most of the days of last year (thru QID, SKF, and bunch of put options), made more money on the long side picking interim bottoms which I hold no more than a week or two.
Cheers,
Mich@TBP (a.k.a. Mich^IXIC1881)
P.S. I hope I didn’t jinx it, I am superstitious that way.
January 27th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
@Steve Barry
As a matter of fact, I returned 189% last year in my Roth IRA. Primarily through buying and selling assorted put options. While I wasn’t thinking in terms of what kind of year the S&P 500 would have, I did notify several friends and associates – on 2 DEC 07 – that a deflationary asset spiral was now a lock. Market crashes are a standard feature of deflationary asset spirals.
As for Mish, I did not start reading him ’til around Aug ‘07. I then read a lot of his old stuff to gauge the accuracy of his calls. If only I had found his site earlier…
January 27th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
I am suspect of Mish’s motivation given the surprising candor and the personal nature of comments. Schiff has been right about a great many details, and wrong about a great many as well. He called the boat sinking correctly in most cases when many others were overwhelmingly against him. To date, he’s wrong on his lifeboat, still who knows, that which Mish is calling him out on, Schiff may yet turn out to be correct. If that does turn out to be the case, Mish better keep the piece and make sure he puts salt and pepper on it before he publicly eat its. Over the duration of Mish’s investment career, he better have stellar returns, else I suspect we’re going to find out about them in short order. All in all, who the hell is Mish to go after any other money mgr. I like alot of his analysis on many topics, but he is now himself a target for slapdowns if he wants to go down this road and given the tone in many of his commentaries, I suspect it would not take much to get under his skin.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Schiff’s media persona is interesting. Seeing him in recent months I couldn’t help but notice that he looked, well, richer than in those montage YouTube things circa 2006 where people on Fox et al laughed openly at his predictions. He was right then, they were very wrong, and one assumes Schiff made some good spendola as he was being proved correct. I salute him. But now he does the laughing on these CNBC spots and his laughter is pretty unattractive. His insistence that massive inflation is all around us right now sounds shrill. It seemed possible recently, but it’s not happening right now. And his insistence that ANY government efforts to address the crisis are doomed/stupid/futile may in the end be wise council but it’s not politically astute. The govmint, especially THIS govmint, will act. Insisting it do nothing is grandstanding or some weird angry goofiness.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:12 pm
I just came up with a plan for a $700 billion transcontinental high speed rail network (7000 miles). I think its the future of America. I’m hoping its part of the second fiscal stimulus. I think Abraham Lincoln would aprove.
“Riding on the City of New Orleans,
Illinois Central Monday morning rail
Fifteen cars and fifteen restless riders,
Three conductors and twenty-five sacks of mail.
All along the southbound odyssey
The train pulls out at Kankakee
Rolls along past houses, farms and fields.
Passin’ trains that have no names,
Freight yards full of old black men
And the graveyards of the rusted automobiles.
Good morning America how are you?
Don’t you know me I’m your native son,
I’m the train they call The City of New Orleans,
I’ll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
Dealin’ card games with the old men in the club car.
Penny a point ain’t no one keepin’ score.
Pass the paper bag that holds the bottle
Feel the wheels rumblin’ ‘neath the floor.
And the sons of pullman porters
And the sons of engineers
Ride their father’s magic carpets made of steel.
Mothers with their babes asleep,
Are rockin’ to the gentle beat
And the rhythm of the rails is all they feel.
Nighttime on The City of New Orleans,
Changing cars in Memphis, Tennessee.
Half way home, we’ll be there by morning
Through the Mississippi darkness
Rolling down to the sea.
And all the towns and people seem
To fade into a bad dream
And the steel rails still ain’t heard the news.
The conductor sings his song again,
The passengers will please refrain
This train’s got the disappearing railroad blues.”
Good night, America, how are you?
Don’t you know me I’m your native son,
I’m the train they call The City of New Orleans,
I’ll be gone five hundred miles when the day is done.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
By the way, I have been reading Mish’s blog more than I read TBP in the last few months…
No offense Barry
, it is just that TBP feels less about the Big Picture, macro views, more about stock tips and speculation. I am talking more about comments section which attracted me to the site in the beginning. The thing is, I don’t like to hear what others do with information, I just want to learn about the information. It is OK to see what people are thinking if they back it up by some supporting facts. For example, I don’t follow Elliot waves, nor fibonnacci series, but when AT shares his readings, I read it to understand what some are thinking, which is good. Aside from that, recently all I see is people buying each other burgers, and using comments sections like a chat room for 1 on 1 discussions. Maybe, now that everybody knows what TBP readers have known for a long time, there is nothing new to talk about.
Cest la vie
January 27th, 2009 at 11:16 pm
Mish wins. Peter Schiff fucked up and he knows it. Come on … lawsuit?
January 27th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
TheSpartan. That was F’n funny.
I read Peter Schiff’s book–surviving the upcoming financial armagedon, or something like that– a couple of years ago. He was right on when it came to the USA going into a recession/depression because of the high dept, i.e., mortgages, credit card, etc., and little real industrial production. But Peter made bold statements like China and India would de-couple from the USA and would not suffer like the USA. He advocated for, amongst other things, HEAVY investment in China equity. He even made some funny statements like China is even a better place to invest than the USA because China is not a democracy. I liked everything except the decoupling theory and such wild assertions by Peter that “supported” the de-coupling theory. As a result, Peter’s investors are down 70% while regular dumb USA money manger are down 40%. One other thing to be mindful of is that his book failed to take into account the severe geopolitical “unrest” that would occur and, possibly, make the USA the safest place to live and invest.
Truth is a defense to liable. Can you say Anti-SLAPP? I knew you could.
Mish & Peter.. LET’S HUG IT OUT BITCH.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
@super trooper:
“Nice extension of the decreasing slop of the Case-Shiller graph. It doesn’t take a genius to realize that when market comes crashing down it goes fast. My issue would be, why would you imagine that it levels off nicely at an index of 110? ”
Between you and me, of course it is going much lower than that…I don’t want to panic everyone…plus few will believe so drastic a view. In 6 years I can set a new target.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:23 pm
Mish rules.
The Schiff piece = another win for the democratization of news flow.
Schiff seems to embrace notoriety in the TV media. Mish’s piece was just the “rest of the story”.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
I’m down 0%. I guess just trusting in good old fashioned American academic economics is the way to go. Woohoo!
January 27th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
“One other thing to be mindful of is that his book failed to take into account the severe geopolitical “unrest” that would occur and, possibly, make the USA the safest place to live and invest.”
Well, California better start issuing checks again, and soon, else there goes that thesis. It’ll be a Kurt Russell movie part III. Hell, what’s the worry, we’ll just borrow $2 Trillion this year to keep it safe.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
@Mich and Texas radio…great work…please keep us posted on your outlooks for this year as developments warrant.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
mish > pesh?
January 27th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
ben22-
yes, for real- those are my feelings on the matter.
I didn’t say/imply or insinuate that Mike Shedlock can’t know anything, he may know something.
I feel that he is using a tactic similar to brand x mentioning the top known brand y, in advertising. Brand y spends the time to build a brand and now brand x has the right to dilute that ? Seems sleezy to me.
No i don’t do any work at a bank. Now, what did you mean by that? Are you insinuating…..
-ray
January 27th, 2009 at 11:35 pm
Steve Barry and texas radio and Mich…
I returned 200% last year buying mainly puts. I did buy calls earlier in the year on xto and commodity plays as well as the vix.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
@ben22
Just read the Kass piece…I’ve always wondered why only Buffet could do what he does…here is what I said awhile back:
Steve Barry Says:
October 17th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
About a year ago, Warren Buffet started to appear on CNBC quite often, usually with Becky Quick. Very recently, he pumped a huge chunk of cash into CNBC’s parent, GE. I said awhile back he had “jumped the shark” and now that he and CNBC are so intertwined, it’s time to fade Warren.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
The BIG Question in the whole Mish vs Schiff debate, from a TBP point of view, is who will be eventually right in the long run…Schiff’s hyperinflation or Mish’s deflation. Its possible we get the Deflation followed by HyperInflation.
In regards to the blog post by Mish, the winner in all this are tools like Don Luskin. My guess is that other analysts will throw this in Peter’s face when he’s on TV, giving more time to false extreme viewpoints of idiocy advocated by Luskin and his archetype.
For the record, Schiff got it right when it came down to housing, the US economy, calling oil to go up to 125 when it was at 75, being a longgggg bull on gold, telling people to get out of the dollar and into the yen. He was wrong on decoupling, hyperinflation, and the Euro/other currencies.
So when can we see a version of this with Barry vs Jim Rogers?
January 27th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
The real question is why is Mish has been correct in predicting deflation all along? Could it be he is not really an Austrian at all but really a New Keynesian in Austrian clothing?
January 27th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
I read one of schiff’s books. I didn’t learn anything other than that I should invest my money with him because he’s so smart.
I think that he’s living proof that if you make a prediction and it eventually comes true, you’re a genius. It doesn’t matter if it takes six months or six years.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:53 pm
@invetorinpa
I think the big question isn’t what will/would/could/should happen. The question is what did Shiff do for its investors in 2008. Everybody, including Cramer, at one time or another makes a correct forecast, the difference is 1) what you do with that forecast, and 2) how much of you believe in that forecast. You show the first by acting on it by buying or selling, and the second by the size of that trade. Shiff’s prophecies means nothing as a money manager, if he didn’t make any money for his clients. It is horrible to go, be a pundit on TV and lose money for your clients. Either walk to walk, or don’t talk the talk.
@Steve,
I expect a sharp, parabolic spike hitting (what else but my beloved constant target) ^IXIC 1881, passing it by some margin of error, then to resuming its downhill slide to 1000. When? I play it as if it will happen in a month or two until that spike, and finish the year closer to 1000.
January 27th, 2009 at 11:58 pm
“The real question is why is Mish has been correct in predicting deflation all along? Could it be he is not really an Austrian at all but really a New Keynesian in Austrian clothing?”
Uh, no, but nice try at redefining anyone who got it right as a Keynesian. Other Austrian deflationists included Robert Prechter, Kevin Depew, and Frank Shostak.
Unless these guys are all “New Keynesians,” in which case, your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:01 am
love that last sentence and link! good ending
January 28th, 2009 at 12:03 am
@Mich:
How did you develop the 1881 target? I used to have a target of 38.10 on AMZN that always became support and resistance for years.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:05 am
@Steve Barry
Outlook from the book:
- April PG puts but will likely exit soon, possibly at a loss, although I think they get hit by foreign exchange and unsustainable margins…. it’s only a matter of time.
- April AUY calls, waiting for the inevitable gold rush.
- About 40% cash.
- Trading SRS on occasion.
- Short the GBP (pound) via futures (margin account) but that is not looking so hot at the moment.
I’ve looked at QID but time deterioration is a concern. Not a big NASDAQ fan either. That index is custom-made for the quote about “markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent”.
2008 was great for bears but the easy money has been made. Govt interference could drag out the decline for a new record in bear market duration. While I don’t believe that a rally is on the horizon at this time, I hope I’m wrong. This summer looks to be one long tear-stained liquidation sale.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Here’s a great article at the Mises Institute website by Shostak predicting deflation in November 2006:
http://mises.org/story/2364
It ends with this gem by Mises, very suited to our present circumstances:
“An essential point in the social philosophy of interventionism is the existence of an inexhaustible fund which can be squeezed forever. The whole system of interventionism collapses when this fountain is drained off: The Santa Claus principle liquidates itself.”
January 28th, 2009 at 12:13 am
@Graphite,
So you only listen to Austrians? Too bad. Most of them have been wrong. (By the way, you forgot to mention Gary North).
January 28th, 2009 at 12:15 am
@texas:
Thanks…about AUY calls…are you concerned that the gold/oil ratio is quite high?
January 28th, 2009 at 12:21 am
To Mish and Schiff – Open the books and let the returns tell the truth!
OT: Bernanke was at the London School of Economics (I believe) and was asked about the Austrian School theories. He did not have an answer. How can one have a doctorate and not have an understanding of all the theories that pertain to your field of expertise? You should know them well enough to rebut them if necessary.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:21 am
Compare Schiff’s returns last year over those of Lehman, Bear Stearns, Citi, B of A, Fannie, Freddie, Countrywide, AIG and shit, I could go on and on. Everyone makes mistakes. To err is human. But I don’t see Schiff’s investment firm either going under or asking for our money.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:22 am
I’m still thinking that Barry needs to take on someone who has been wrong (there are many to choose from). This week has been epic as you had a main card of Doug Kass vs Warren Buffett, an undercard of Peter Schiff versus Mish. There is opportunity for Mr. Ritholtz to jump on in. For a main event, I think Barry vs Jim Rogers would work. And for the vintage match, how about Kirk Kekorian vs Carl Icahn (I can never remember which one is which).
January 28th, 2009 at 12:24 am
Steve,
1881 is arbitrary. I don’t know much about, nor really believe in resistance and support lines. It is in that general area is what I believe.
Develop??
January 28th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Well, I managed to make over 200% last year, so I certainly don’t feel the need for any pity regarding the economic theories I use to guide my investment decisions.
Besides, Austrians were wrong about what, precisely? Those Austrians that were confused about “money supply,” and failed to take into account the influence of credit, missed the deflation that was taking place. But the main Austrian investment thesis has always been “buy gold.” It was a better place to keep money last year than any unleveraged asset class besides dollars or yen, and some of the people most strongly recommending dollars & yen (like Mish and Depew) were Austrians of a different feather.
Most Keynesians have been wrong too, but it’s not like you can just sum up the conclusions of a theory’s professed adherents and then draw any conclusions about the theory itself whatsoever.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:29 am
@AmenRa,
Thats because it was the equivalant of asking Bernanke what his opinion was about ancient Slavic pagan beliefs regarding fertility rituals.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:30 am
“Bernanke was at the London School of Economics (I believe) and was asked about the Austrian School theories. He did not have an answer.”
He had an answer, but it was a complete evasion, which makes sense: central bankers and others from the monetarist/Keynesian axis are terrified of the Austrian School because it basically renders them obsolete.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:32 am
“Thats because it was the equivalant of asking Bernanke what his opinion was about ancient Slavic pagan beliefs regarding fertility rituals.”
This is a great example of what I’m talking about, the Keynesian approach is, “let’s not seriously discuss the theory, we need to pretend it’s not even worthy of debate … ” Krugman’s been employing the method a bit lately.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:37 am
@Graphite,
That must be the reason why only two schools out of 1000 national undergraduate programs in economics teach Austrian economics. It couldn’t be because you didn’t qualify for entrance.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:45 am
@Mark
So, the Austrian School is not taught as mainstream economic theory at universities, so it must not be true. Right. Given the state of the economics profession today, I’m left to wonder whether this is meant to be an argument *for* or *against* Austrianism.
I suppose in the 1500s one could just as easily have argued that Copernicus was not taught in *any* universities, thus firmly establishing the truth of the geocentric model of the universe.
I honestly don’t know why I’m even debating you. You are so wedded to the idea of the absurdity of Austrianism, that when confronted with contrary evidence, viz. Mish (a public commentator and self-proclaimed Austrian who foresaw a deflationary crash), the only conclusion you are led to draw is, “Well, he must *really* be a Keynesian at heart!”
“Cognitive dissonance,” indeed.
BTW, I was an early admit to the University of Chicago’s economics program, but had the good sense not to go into debt to pay their outrageous tuition. Say what you will about the Department’s theories, it was still the #1 econ program in the country at the time.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:47 am
@ Mark A. Sadowski
There’s only two schools because there’s no real money (fleecing the public) to be earned.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:50 am
I spent my undergraduate years at UC.
Even you have to admit that Mish is in the one percent of Austrian beliefs. Ask yourself why?
January 28th, 2009 at 12:52 am
@ Sadowski
I thought it was because the Austrian school wouldn’t let the government play with the money supply as much as Keynes’ theories allowed it. The ups and downs of the business cycle are caused by that interference.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:01 am
@AmenRa,
That’s not how I read Mish. (Mind you he won’tadmit to my reading of him.) He, unlike most Austrians, seems to look beyond monetary aggregates and instead focus on economic fundamentals, in other words, on things that are indicators of aggregate demand.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Ludwig vonMises on credit:
What is needed for a sound expansion of production is additional
capital goods, not money or fiduciary media. The credit
boom is built on the sands of banknotes and deposits. It must
collapse.
Human Action, p. 559; p. 561
If the credit expansion is not stopped in time, the boom
turns into the crack-up boom; the flight into real values begins,
and the whole monetary system founders.
Human Action, p. 559; p. 562
The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.
Human Action, p. 562; p. 564
Credit expansion is the governments’ foremost tool in their
struggle against the market economy. In their hands it is the
magic wand designed to conjure away the scarcity of capital
goods, to lower the rate of interest or to abolish it altogether,
to finance lavish government spending, to expropriate the capitalists,
to contrive everlasting booms, and to make everybody
prosperous.
Human Action, p. 788; p. 794
January 28th, 2009 at 1:03 am
I think we are at a point of inflection. The comments here are very telling.
Buffet has lost his way…I’ll take the other end of that bet. Time to buy BRK. Cherry Coke for everyone.
Inflation is dead, deflation is here to stay…I’ll go long inflation. Some commodities have already strengthened of late. Those just watching oil might be missing the other markets.
The dollar is bad but all other currencies are worse…Wait until UST bonds get clobbered, then the dollar falls with it. Japan will devalue the Yen soon they have no choice otherwise everyone from Toyota to Sony go out of business.
Schiff is an idiot and is wrong…I’ll go long Schiff and Short Mish for the foreseeable future.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:05 am
I like Mish’s analysis, my only complaint(s) is that he gets a tad shrill and he talks his own book. In order for him to be right, he must ensure deflation takes hold and hammers everyone. Thus the almost crazed postings on anything union. Unions comprise 10% of the workforce, yet you’d think they are the driving forces in the economy and must be destroyed to solve our economic ills. Shrill, and aimed at ensuring wage/price deflation, to validate his personal views and trading book.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:06 am
Between 2002 and 2006, 73% of national income growth went to the top one percent, leading that group to having a 23% share of national income, the highest since 1928. And in the first 10 quarters of the recovery from the recession of 2001 46.9% of national income growth went to corporate profits, an unprecedented share in the postwar era. As productivity soared, wages stagnated. Meanwhile net private investment lagged during the decade, never rising to the level set in 2000. Instead corporate profits and the savings of the wealthy were diverted to credit backed securities, essentially lending the money back to the underpaid employees. Eventually the bubble burst, as indebted consumers could borrow no more. The saddest part about all of this was that it happened before, in the 1920’s. The only way to make the economy grow sustainably is to shift income away from the wealthy and from profits back to employees. We need EFCA, as well as higher minimum wages and more progressive taxation. JThese facts have caused me to reread Chapter 24 of Keynes’ General Theory. His words seem oddly prophetic now:
“For while we have seen that, up to the point where full employment prevails, the growth of capital depends not at all on a low propensity to consume but is, on the contrary, held back by it; and only in conditions of full employment is a low propensity to consume conducive to the growth of capital. Moreover, experience suggests that in existing conditions savings by institutions and through sinking funds is more than adequate, and that measures for the redistribition of incomes in a way likely to raise the propensity to consume may prove positively favorable to the growth of capital.”
January 28th, 2009 at 1:44 am
Mish’s rant seems to be mostly a cry for attention (envy) that Schiff gets all the street cred as one who “saw it coming” , while Mish is skimming the bottom with a second rate web site (BUY GOLD!) and guest appearances on TDI. While Mish may be a brilliant investor/economist, he’s definitely lacking as an orator (he’s no B.O.) Given, Mish seems to have nailed it performance wise for 2008 (although tossing around unaudited performance numbers could get him in deep S%&t with the SEC/FINRA)
It’s a sad day when one needs to take an extreme position to warrant a following. Congrats to Barry for somehow managing to build a presence without a chicken little dance (although you provide a stark contrast against the Kudlow perma-bulls of 2007.) Cheers.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:07 am
Hit pieces are an utterly despicable way to try to generate traffic.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:45 am
@ investorinpa: LOL. Are you trying to turn this into Fight Club?? Yeah, great idea! I think Barry wants to take on William Shatner.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:03 am
Mish’s returns are nothing at all to be proud of. For someone who went on and on and on about deflation and a banking collapse, his performance last year was absolutely underwhelming. His Sitka Pacific Absolute Return fund was up 6% last year. That is better than the S&P but is pathetic if you look at his investment themes. If he thought there was deflation, why did he not buy long bonds or short copper and oil? If he thought banks were toast, why did he not short banks? How is it possible to provide only 6% return.
As another investment manager recently wrote, “Being ‘right” in your analysis is virtually irrelevant to success in the financial markets. If your surgeon had done as bad a job in operating on your gallbladder as the “doom and gloomers ” who predicted the crash did in managing your money during the fall of 2008, he’d be jailed for malpractice.”
Mish should equally be jailed for malpractice. He’s a great blogger but a terrible investor and trader given his stated themes and poor strategies and tactics.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:44 am
Dude, the S&P was down 38% !
Any one positive is a jumbo winner.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:26 am
He outperformed the S&P, but he massively underperformed his stated themes.
January 28th, 2009 at 6:32 am
For what it’s worth, I have been assuming that Schiff’s little PR blitz wasn’t a vanity effort but was driven by his book publisher. Absent hard evidence to the contrary, I’m sticking with that assumption.
Not that I can stand the guy… I’m glad Mish did this. Someone needed to.
January 28th, 2009 at 7:12 am
There’s a huge difference between understanding what is happening in the world around us and making money with that info.
Unfortunately, most people don’t understasnd this. They’ll tell you things like: “If you know what you are talking about, why aren’t you a billionaire? The Portfolio Managers can be the worst at this game because they have to bactually believe in their superpower abilities to stay in the game, despite stats showing a RARE number of them being able to beat the market!
So I still think Shiff understands what is going on and I just disregard his recommendations.
January 28th, 2009 at 7:18 am
i dont think it was schiff’s opinion or strategy that drew the ire of shedlock, but more likely the manner in which his opinions have been delivered. while he has been right on many issues, his haughty attitude on tv and eye rolling he does while others speak would probably be infuriating to those who know that he is not really infallible and has made mistakes.
theres nothing wrong with being wrong, but pretending that you are never wrong? as johnny cash said, sooner or later comes the strike-down.
lawsuit may be on the grounds that by making a brokerage statement public it is a some sort of violation….guess we’ll see
January 28th, 2009 at 7:24 am
danm:
Many don’t understand what is happening in the world…
There Ain’t Really a Plan….TARP
January 28th, 2009 at 8:03 am
Today looks like it is going to be very interesting, or pathetic, we are rallying again on a bank bailout. Our system is so very broken. BA just out with earnings, very ugly.
That said;
this may sound odd but I had been thinking this year we would see a rally period up into April or May and then a big puke out in the summer and into Sept/Oct then a pretty violent snap back at the end of the year. I thought the index (S&P) would end down 10-12%.
Now I’m thinking I might need to change this. We may not get the real low until next year. I can’t find much, with maybe a few exceptions, that seems rational so now I’m expecting the market to possibly move higher by the end of the year.
I also think a war could start this year which may propel the market higher.
Since I’m so uncertain I’ve got some really boring bonds (not treasuries) in my accounts and small positions in a handful of longs (gold, some metal and mining companies and a little bit of energy and agriculture) then just cash. I sold out of TBT earlier this week and have a limit order set up below 40 hoping that Bernanke will help me today and say they will buy bonds, sending TBT down to where I want to buy back. I want to buy SRS but I am having a difficult time finding an entry point right now.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:05 am
Steve Barry,
I think i remember when you wrote that about WB back in October, another good call.. Don’t look now but Wells Fargo, one of his big one’s just posted some nasty numbers, probably won’t matter, who didn’t see that coming after the Wachovia buy.
The commercials say they are now twice as strong though!
January 28th, 2009 at 8:29 am
I feel like I walked in at the middle of a movie and you needed to see the first couple of minutes in order to understand the rest.
I honestly have no idea who Peter Schiff is, although I have seen his name in print before. I’ve read Mish a couple of times. He appears to be knowledgeable but couldn’t hold my interest.
I’m not trying to be rude but why should I care about Schiff? Almost everyone who predicts markets is mostly wrong and a little right. What makes him such a standout? Is he a Madoff type character? Why does everyone appear to dislike him so much?
January 28th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Mish’ point was not that Schiff should be infallable – but that he did not have an exit plan.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Mind Says:
January 28th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Mish’ point was not that Schiff should be infallable – but that he did not have an exit plan.
reply:
Horrors, he was the only one!
January 28th, 2009 at 8:51 am
@jtepper2
Please explain how one might have obtained outsized returns in 2008 without leverage and, at the same time, using strict risk management.
@Steve Barry
Trying to find a correlation for gold, that’s the real trick, isn’t it? I’m not expecting a moonshot, but capital preservation interest will result in $1000-$1,200 soon, IMHO. Also, the miners will likely return to – and possibly exceed – the valuation metrics of the last several years. Of course, such an outlook involves considerable risk when using options.
January 28th, 2009 at 8:55 am
Mind: Mish’ point was not that Schiff should be infallable – but that he did not have an exit plan.
I think schiff’s big mistake, if that brokerage statement was accurate, was that rather than owning ther metal (gold) itself, he chose to get exposure through the miners.
the miscalculation was that at the end of the day, the miners are equities and as such, subject to all the woes of all the other equities (hedge fund liquidations, lack of access to credit markets, multiple compression etc.)
he should’ve stuck with the metal itself and skipped the little mining stocks
just my two cents
January 28th, 2009 at 9:42 am
Firstly, only suckers take people’s advice when it comes to trading and investing.
Those who really like Schiff do not like him for his advice, we like him for his brutal honesty! Peter was calling this crises a crises way before anyone else out there was so settle down ladies.
Peter’s problem is that he sees things too honestly and that doesn’t always make money. He sees the markets and the economy through blk/wht glasses when the puppet masters (Greenspan/Bernanke) pulling the strings are smoking Lucky Charms.
In a real and honest world, Peter would be absolutely right, but unfortunately America is all smoke and mirrors.
Peter’s message is absolutely correct but his advice stinks!
January 28th, 2009 at 10:13 am
Actually, having read Mish’s grenade, and having watched Schiff for the past year or so, I thought Mish’s piece was a bit heavy-handed, and contained a discomforting sales job for Sitka in the bargain. It would have been more appropriate for Mish Shedlock to separate the two, and that he did not do so, eroded the credibility of the entire thing. Moreover, at the end of his piece is Mish’s apology for not even realizing that the YouTube video was made a year ago and not recently! So, what does that say about Mish’s vaunted smack-down? Not much, in my view. Personally, I have not ever seen Peter Schiff expound on his perfection in any written column or personal interview, so I was curious as to why Mish Shedlock decided to annihilate Schiff publicly–and with such venomous slander. I don’t think it was necessary to make it so personal, so I am not surprised that Schiff is reportedly “livid.” In the end, as far as I’m concerned Mish Shedlock damaged his own credibility more than Schiff’s. And, I read both of them for analysis of the market and economics.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:05 am
I think all of them should be required to post information about how much $100,000 invested with them at time X would be worth today. That information should be required for every single month since they began their investment advice business. That way you could see if someone had simply been lucky for a few years or they actually had a long-term viable strategy that could beat the market and their own fees. To be real cruel it should also be demanded that they posted, for comparison, the return of the stock market indexes.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
@TheSpartan: Well done!
Mish has brutally exposed Schiff as an investment advisor.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:28 am
mountainaires, fully agree with your post. well said.
January 28th, 2009 at 11:36 am
All the rest aside Schiff got the basics right a long time ago – remember this Kudlow nonsense and Schiff debate?
http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1205727731.php
January 28th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
The only I really learned in college (outside of the classroom) that helped me later in life was in dealing with people; it pays to allow them to be wrong with dignity.
January 28th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
Not that I’m a fan of any of these bozos but Schiff has been right for awhile and I know very few money managers (which I don’t think Schiff is, actually. He’s a broker dealer I think?) are up for the year. But as a broker dealer, he’s subject to the direction of many of his investors so not everyone with their money there is down. Mish looks like he’s burned and wants blood. Not very attractive behavior really.
January 28th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
ben22 @ 8:03 a.m.
“I want to buy SRS but I am having a difficult time finding an entry point right now.”
Found your entry point yet today? or is it sub-50?
January 28th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
I quit reading mish when he started stealing content, claiming it was his, and then when called out, he never gave the origninal material attribution.
January 28th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Calling correctly that something will be up or that it will be down for the year is something that a brainless flip of as coin can do 50% of the time. Now if you make 10 of those types of call in a row and they all are correct – that would indicate some kind of a skill. The same goes for if you can get some kind of a magnitude added to the call such as: “up by at least 25% before the end of May, then down at least 40% by August and no more than single digit change for the year”. There is a reason most of the chest-chumpers only are seen about half of the time.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
batmando,
No I still didn’t buy any today, look at that thing though, down from $295! I can’t figure it out so I’m just going to stay away, the fact that it is at a 52 week low at one point today makes no sense at all to me.
January 28th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
I was curious as to why Mish Shedlock decided to annihilate Schiff publicly-and with such venomous slander.
I didn’t read it as an annihilation or slanderous. It was serious. It was unpleasant, but if it was true, so be it.
January 28th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Bottom line is Schiff is down big time for his clients and Mish is up. I was going to invest with Schiff but i am glad i did not. I gave Sitka a little dough so lets see what happens. I listen to both of them and then make up my own mind.
If Mish found it necessary to enlighten people about Schiff at least in the short term then so be it. But i will bet you that the people that investing with Schiff right now are pissed as hell, as a matter of fact there is a youtube conversation with Schiff and one very irate customer. Schiff was a tad less then sensitive to the mans huge 2008 losses.
The ability to correctly forecast economic trends, and an ability to trade those ideas profitably, are two different things.
January 28th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Here’s my beef, on Mish’s frontpage for months (if not for years), has been a never ending cavalcade of reporting and analysis concerning the malfeasance, theft, criminality along with moral and ethical bankruptcy as he reported on the doings of Wall Street, the FED, other central banks and various governments and the pols behind much of the market’s violent and destructive machinations. Now, given the same degree of importance to them, is Peter Schiff. Is Schiff the equal of Madoff? Bernanke? Paulson? Trichet? Greenspan? Blair? Gordon Brown?
And when does Mish determine the best time to present this piece? The moment after he’s featured in Time Magazine. So his new Time Magazine audience, now view one of the few FED critics (of the policies Mish himself has spoken out against) who actually gets air time on the MSM, is to be ignored, dismissed, discounted and ridiculed. Of course, at the end of his hit piece, we see how Sitka Pacific has performed oh-so-much better then Euro-Pacific, at least by using one Euro-Pacific account in comparison. So Mish promotes himself to his new audience, not by attacking the fraudsters on Wall Street who were facilitators of this mess and/or who lost more money for their clients than Schiff (cough*cough* boone pickens * cough), he attacks one of the few people he should see as an ally in the cause against said fraud and theft. Amazing. But of course, those big guns have big money behind them, big attorneys and little to no honor. So which party would be more inclined to make Shedlock’s life difficult and costly from such an attack? Even if they couldn’t win a law suit? Mike played it fast and loose and safe. In some ways, Schiff is an easy target because of his personality (which can be grating and generates little sympathy, witness the comments of folks here) and in some respects, I think this has been a personal mission on Shedlock’s part. So don’t tell me Mish didn’t know what he was doing, for the first thing his new Time Magazine audience reads, is a comparison of his performance over a competitor. The timing of this attack was no accident. It took time to prepare so as to be released with maximum effect.
Interestingly, as I look at Schiff’s website, I only see Euro-Pacific products being promoted, unlike Mish’s blog which has numerous advertisements well beyond that of Sitka Pacific. Am I supposed to believe that the Time article and his advertising stream has no effect on his opinions? On his motivations?
“Take the king’s coin, become the king’s man.”
Oh, if we all could only be a pure as Shedlock.
And don’t even get me started with the deflation orthodoxy for which Mish has an obsession to defend (as if it was his personal honor on the line). Unfortunately in this case, he didn’t defend it, he merely engaged in an ad hominem disguised as a defense. The deflation/inflation schism is distracting from the true task at hand, which is stopping the madness which will lay ruin upon us all. But why worry about the big picture, when one can pump up their chest, at the expense of another? And some of you take Schiff to task for tooting his own horn, tell me, when it comes to assessing character, how is Mish now any different? Did anyone here watch how Schiff has been treated over the past several years on most of the financial shows? If I was treated the same way, by the financial status-quo, you best believe I would take every chance now to give it right back for all the laughter and contempt.
Time is the great distiller and Mish best hope that after a given amount of time, he doesn’t look simularly as foolish. I wouldn’t be surprised if there isn’t yet another exogenous event laying out there in wait for all of us this year. If it comes to pass, we’ll see how well prepared Mish and his camp were for it. And if they weren’t, maybe Schiff can find that one disgruntled Sitka Pacific client who is just as willing to go running to Schiff, crying about being Mish’s bag holder.
It’s no wonder the conmen continue to win, when those atempting to flush them out and warn the public, are at each other’s throats and their audience is suckered into picking sides.
Thanks for helping to set us back, Mish. I hope those thirty pieces of silver were worth it.
January 29th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
P.S. is necessary. Schiff answered Mish’s list of allegations in “A Response to My Critics”.
January 29th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Schiff’s responce:
http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/schiff/2009/0129.html
February 2nd, 2009 at 6:35 am
JoeB – excellent post