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	<title>Comments on: Citi &amp; BofA Ain&#8217;t No Continental Illinois Bank</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: Darkness</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148321</link>
		<dc:creator>Darkness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148321</guid>
		<description>jameskostohryz, excellent plan. Next, following that same tactic we can just send Madoff back to printing off fake trade sheets and collecting money from new investors.  Problem solved!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jameskostohryz, excellent plan. Next, following that same tactic we can just send Madoff back to printing off fake trade sheets and collecting money from new investors.  Problem solved!</p>
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		<title>By: moonmullins</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148318</link>
		<dc:creator>moonmullins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148318</guid>
		<description>Jeez Barry, did you even bother to read Isaac&#039;s article?  As others have pointed out here, Isaac identified several differences between Continental in the 1980s and BofA and Citi today.  Perhaps because you&#039;ve stuck your neck out on the opposite point of view you felt compelled to disagree with him. Interesting that Dick Bove, Meredith Whitney, Bill Siedman, Rodgin Cohen and many, many others all agree with Isaac - they believe nationalisation is a terrible idea.  The best idea for repairing our banks is through the net worth certificate program, a program that worked very well here in the U.S. some 20 years ago. It would fix the bank&#039;s balance sheets at a far more reasonable cost to taxpayers while likewise encouraging the private sector to invest, something your beloved nationalisation idea wouldn&#039;t do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeez Barry, did you even bother to read Isaac&#8217;s article?  As others have pointed out here, Isaac identified several differences between Continental in the 1980s and BofA and Citi today.  Perhaps because you&#8217;ve stuck your neck out on the opposite point of view you felt compelled to disagree with him. Interesting that Dick Bove, Meredith Whitney, Bill Siedman, Rodgin Cohen and many, many others all agree with Isaac &#8211; they believe nationalisation is a terrible idea.  The best idea for repairing our banks is through the net worth certificate program, a program that worked very well here in the U.S. some 20 years ago. It would fix the bank&#8217;s balance sheets at a far more reasonable cost to taxpayers while likewise encouraging the private sector to invest, something your beloved nationalisation idea wouldn&#8217;t do.</p>
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		<title>By: jameskostohryz</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148298</link>
		<dc:creator>jameskostohryz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148298</guid>
		<description>Nationalization is simply not necessary.  The arguments are based on a lack of understanding of how banks work.  This following example lays out a model of bank operations and demonstrates that massive bailouts are not necessary and that talk of nationalization of the banking system is a horrific over-reaction.   All that is required is for the government to change current regulations so that banks be allowed to carry all assets at acquisition cost and be allowed to charge off troubled assets over time.

http://www.minyanville.com/articles/C-bank-jpm-bac-wfc-bailout/index/a/21280</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nationalization is simply not necessary.  The arguments are based on a lack of understanding of how banks work.  This following example lays out a model of bank operations and demonstrates that massive bailouts are not necessary and that talk of nationalization of the banking system is a horrific over-reaction.   All that is required is for the government to change current regulations so that banks be allowed to carry all assets at acquisition cost and be allowed to charge off troubled assets over time.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.minyanville.com/articles/C-bank-jpm-bac-wfc-bailout/index/a/21280" rel="nofollow">http://www.minyanville.com/articles/C-bank-jpm-bac-wfc-bailout/index/a/21280</a></p>
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		<title>By: bman</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148268</link>
		<dc:creator>bman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148268</guid>
		<description>Darkness, It&#039;s hopeless, ever since the Bush administration started feeding us lines like, &quot;The alternative is unthinkable.&quot;  we have been headed straight to hell in a handbasket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darkness, It&#8217;s hopeless, ever since the Bush administration started feeding us lines like, &#8220;The alternative is unthinkable.&#8221;  we have been headed straight to hell in a handbasket.</p>
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		<title>By: dead hobo</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148254</link>
		<dc:creator>dead hobo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148254</guid>
		<description>I have an idea. Nobody has thought of this one yet.

Since CitiBank has a market valuation of pocket change, why doesn&#039;t BoA make a tender offer. It could take control for pocket change, figuratively speaking.

BoA maintains C as a separate corporate entity upon the close of the deal.

BoA puts C into liquidation bankruptcy and cherry picks the good assets. The rest goes out for sale. In fact, BOA could probably sell the whole thing at a profit if properly dismantled without filing for bankruptcy. This will only work if C is priced next to zero, as it is now.

BoA probably will make money on the deal plus have some decent assets left over, such as retail banking, and 1 pile of crap is taken out of the economy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have an idea. Nobody has thought of this one yet.</p>
<p>Since CitiBank has a market valuation of pocket change, why doesn&#8217;t BoA make a tender offer. It could take control for pocket change, figuratively speaking.</p>
<p>BoA maintains C as a separate corporate entity upon the close of the deal.</p>
<p>BoA puts C into liquidation bankruptcy and cherry picks the good assets. The rest goes out for sale. In fact, BOA could probably sell the whole thing at a profit if properly dismantled without filing for bankruptcy. This will only work if C is priced next to zero, as it is now.</p>
<p>BoA probably will make money on the deal plus have some decent assets left over, such as retail banking, and 1 pile of crap is taken out of the economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Thatguy</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-2/#comment-148235</link>
		<dc:creator>Thatguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 19:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148235</guid>
		<description>From Otto:
&quot;…….The problem is when you start calling exceptional people like Geithner, Bair, Summers et al stupid you look…..well…. rather stupid yourself .&quot;

Where&#039;s Rubin on that list?  When you say exceptional... how exactly do you mean exceptional?  Exceptionally blind?  Exceptionally incompetent?
I like Bair and have no reason to believe she&#039;s bought and paid for or incompetent.  She&#039;s certainly held her own here... But Geithner and Summers???  Come on!  Geithner was the fool who was supposed to be regulating these institutions at the FRBNY so that we didn&#039;t end up with a financial meltdown.  How&#039;d that work out?  How about Summers who was the Treasury Secretary that pushed through all the necessary legislation (ex. Financial Services Modernization Act &amp; Commodities Futures Modernization Act) that made this fantastic meltdown possible in the first place.  That IS exceptional.
Quite frankly Otto, I&#039;m tired of hearing your assertions with no backup whatsoever.  You call them exceptional, but provide no proof.  You say nationalization (let&#039;s just call it receivership or bridge bank... whatever) has downsides but fail to point them out saying there&#039;s no silver bullet.  Great rhetoric but not a substantive argument.
I think we can all agree that there&#039;s no silver bullet, all most of us are looking for is the least suboptimal solution to the problem (defined as one that assigns the most losses to those that are the most responsible and the least losses to those that are the least responsible).  Clearly, I think that nationalization is the one on the table that comes closest to this ideal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Otto:<br />
&#8220;…….The problem is when you start calling exceptional people like Geithner, Bair, Summers et al stupid you look…..well…. rather stupid yourself .&#8221;</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s Rubin on that list?  When you say exceptional&#8230; how exactly do you mean exceptional?  Exceptionally blind?  Exceptionally incompetent?<br />
I like Bair and have no reason to believe she&#8217;s bought and paid for or incompetent.  She&#8217;s certainly held her own here&#8230; But Geithner and Summers???  Come on!  Geithner was the fool who was supposed to be regulating these institutions at the FRBNY so that we didn&#8217;t end up with a financial meltdown.  How&#8217;d that work out?  How about Summers who was the Treasury Secretary that pushed through all the necessary legislation (ex. Financial Services Modernization Act &amp; Commodities Futures Modernization Act) that made this fantastic meltdown possible in the first place.  That IS exceptional.<br />
Quite frankly Otto, I&#8217;m tired of hearing your assertions with no backup whatsoever.  You call them exceptional, but provide no proof.  You say nationalization (let&#8217;s just call it receivership or bridge bank&#8230; whatever) has downsides but fail to point them out saying there&#8217;s no silver bullet.  Great rhetoric but not a substantive argument.<br />
I think we can all agree that there&#8217;s no silver bullet, all most of us are looking for is the least suboptimal solution to the problem (defined as one that assigns the most losses to those that are the most responsible and the least losses to those that are the least responsible).  Clearly, I think that nationalization is the one on the table that comes closest to this ideal.</p>
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		<title>By: Darkness</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-1/#comment-148228</link>
		<dc:creator>Darkness</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148228</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The problem is that BR and the nationalizers never actually lay out all the downsides of this course and they are legion.&lt;/i&gt;

And those against never see any upside. Such as post-autopsy, the spun off entities would be the most transparent thing going and could actually attract capital from investors. Until there is transparency, the capital will continue to wait it out and the government will be the only investor. That sounds like nationalization for the stoner-slacker crowd, not a serious solution.

At least come up with *some* alternative for these guys other than indefinite status as the ultimate welfare queens. 

Here, I&#039;ll toss you a non-nationalization idea: force the big banks to start cutting themselves up in to chunks small enough to fail, by whatever dividing lines they want: geographic, niche markets, whatever. I think everyone agrees they are too big. The dissolving process itself will perhaps create enough transparency to attract investors. Who knows. Could happen. But something has to happen. The status quo is idiotic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The problem is that BR and the nationalizers never actually lay out all the downsides of this course and they are legion.</i></p>
<p>And those against never see any upside. Such as post-autopsy, the spun off entities would be the most transparent thing going and could actually attract capital from investors. Until there is transparency, the capital will continue to wait it out and the government will be the only investor. That sounds like nationalization for the stoner-slacker crowd, not a serious solution.</p>
<p>At least come up with *some* alternative for these guys other than indefinite status as the ultimate welfare queens. </p>
<p>Here, I&#8217;ll toss you a non-nationalization idea: force the big banks to start cutting themselves up in to chunks small enough to fail, by whatever dividing lines they want: geographic, niche markets, whatever. I think everyone agrees they are too big. The dissolving process itself will perhaps create enough transparency to attract investors. Who knows. Could happen. But something has to happen. The status quo is idiotic.</p>
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		<title>By: bonghiteric</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-1/#comment-148225</link>
		<dc:creator>bonghiteric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148225</guid>
		<description>@lugnut,
Fuzzier and as toxic than Level 3 assets will be the commercial foreign loans kept on the books, unsecuritized. Oh, say something like Eastern European or SE Asian construction loans. Incomplete projects that are now valued far less than the original loan amount. No U.S. regulator will have any visibility into those books. Nah, not really comparable to the &#039;ol CINBTC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@lugnut,<br />
Fuzzier and as toxic than Level 3 assets will be the commercial foreign loans kept on the books, unsecuritized. Oh, say something like Eastern European or SE Asian construction loans. Incomplete projects that are now valued far less than the original loan amount. No U.S. regulator will have any visibility into those books. Nah, not really comparable to the &#8216;ol CINBTC.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-1/#comment-148224</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148224</guid>
		<description>grumpyoldvet Says:   February 24th, 2009 at 8:05 am 

ol&#039; gov, 

I was, in fact, thinking of giving up commas for Lent--we&#039;ll see how that goes..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>grumpyoldvet Says:   February 24th, 2009 at 8:05 am </p>
<p>ol&#8217; gov, </p>
<p>I was, in fact, thinking of giving up commas for Lent&#8211;we&#8217;ll see how that goes..</p>
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		<title>By: Lugnut</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/citi-bofa-aint-continental-illinois-bank/comment-page-1/#comment-148215</link>
		<dc:creator>Lugnut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19992#comment-148215</guid>
		<description>A government run nationalization of C or BoA would be the biggest cluster F ever. You just know the crew would unearth all kinds of wacky toxic level 3 crap that they&#039;ve been hiding under the bed to keep their solvency ratios fuzzy. Never mind the CDS exposures and the uninsured deposits.  Plus I don&#039;t think the FDIC or whatver group would be in charge would have the horsepower to run an op that big (well).

Say hello to your future Zombie banks that will drip fed a steady IV of Fed billions till we can&#039;t generate money anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A government run nationalization of C or BoA would be the biggest cluster F ever. You just know the crew would unearth all kinds of wacky toxic level 3 crap that they&#8217;ve been hiding under the bed to keep their solvency ratios fuzzy. Never mind the CDS exposures and the uninsured deposits.  Plus I don&#8217;t think the FDIC or whatver group would be in charge would have the horsepower to run an op that big (well).</p>
<p>Say hello to your future Zombie banks that will drip fed a steady IV of Fed billions till we can&#8217;t generate money anymore.</p>
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