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	<title>Comments on: No Housing Recovery Before Further Price Declines</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: The Elusive Housing “Fair Value” &#124; Low Interest Student Loans</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-165044</link>
		<dc:creator>The Elusive Housing “Fair Value” &#124; Low Interest Student Loans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Apr 2009 03:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-165044</guid>
		<description>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Elusive Housing “Fair Value” &#124; All about MICROSOFT</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-164672</link>
		<dc:creator>The Elusive Housing “Fair Value” &#124; All about MICROSOFT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-164672</guid>
		<description>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Elusive Housing &#8220;Fair Value&#8221; &#124; The Big Picture</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-164667</link>
		<dc:creator>The Elusive Housing &#8220;Fair Value&#8221; &#124; The Big Picture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 11:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-164667</guid>
		<description>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] several standard deviations away from the norm to extremely over bought, over valued levels. As prices have come down, these metrics are getting closer to typical levels. They remain elevated, but no longer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JD64</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-148969</link>
		<dc:creator>JD64</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-148969</guid>
		<description>“Yes, there are other fundamental issues with our economy, but the housing market led us into this recession and the housing market will lead us out. It just won’t be solely at the hands of the government, it will be to some degree at the hands of the American people,” said TheGreatAmericanHousingRecovery.com. “Simply put, the issue is fundamental supply and demand. There are just too many homes for sale on the market. If we can get Americans to pull their homes for sale off the market then we immediately alter the supply side of the model.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Yes, there are other fundamental issues with our economy, but the housing market led us into this recession and the housing market will lead us out. It just won’t be solely at the hands of the government, it will be to some degree at the hands of the American people,” said TheGreatAmericanHousingRecovery.com. “Simply put, the issue is fundamental supply and demand. There are just too many homes for sale on the market. If we can get Americans to pull their homes for sale off the market then we immediately alter the supply side of the model.”</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-147794</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147794</guid>
		<description>bhe, 

I&#039;ll just suppose that, in your orbit, footnotes are tres` pedantic, no?

or, should I understand that all of Life&#039;s great lessons are embodied w/in flickering images?
~~

&quot;A renaissance in local manufacturing and a big movement towards local production models are part of a solution that is financially and environmentally sustainable. &quot;--franklin411

we should remember that it is Local Finance, first, and foremost, that assisted our previous Economy-- based on local mfg., et al..

shipping funds out of the County, cross-Country, or trans-Nationally, does little to irrigate the, nearby, fields of employ.

Avl, above, makes a fine point.  the restructuring of our Economy, ~&#039;73-&#039;82, was a grand misdirection, a plot scarcely understood by many of its Actors, and &#039;un-understandable&#039; by many that paid the price, of admission, to see it.  While hailed, in retrospect, as a Critical Failure, it was, file under: Ripley&#039;s, a Box Office smash for its Producers..If only &#039;the Academy&#039; would give an Oscar to those chaps, we&#039;d be that much further along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bhe, </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll just suppose that, in your orbit, footnotes are tres` pedantic, no?</p>
<p>or, should I understand that all of Life&#8217;s great lessons are embodied w/in flickering images?<br />
~~</p>
<p>&#8220;A renaissance in local manufacturing and a big movement towards local production models are part of a solution that is financially and environmentally sustainable. &#8220;&#8211;franklin411</p>
<p>we should remember that it is Local Finance, first, and foremost, that assisted our previous Economy&#8211; based on local mfg., et al..</p>
<p>shipping funds out of the County, cross-Country, or trans-Nationally, does little to irrigate the, nearby, fields of employ.</p>
<p>Avl, above, makes a fine point.  the restructuring of our Economy, ~&#8217;73-&#8217;82, was a grand misdirection, a plot scarcely understood by many of its Actors, and &#8216;un-understandable&#8217; by many that paid the price, of admission, to see it.  While hailed, in retrospect, as a Critical Failure, it was, file under: Ripley&#8217;s, a Box Office smash for its Producers..If only &#8216;the Academy&#8217; would give an Oscar to those chaps, we&#8217;d be that much further along.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkMacKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-147758</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkMacKenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147758</guid>
		<description>Two things about those graphs.

The ratio of house prices to rent is a bit skewed because rents are so low because of the supply and demand for rental real estate.  I have never thought this to be a valuable metric as it assumes everybody can go out and get a loan for a home.

The second graph omits mortgage rates which has a significant impact on affordability.  Right now, housing affordability is actually the highest on record for the 3.5 decades that the NAR has been tracknig the data.

With all of that being said, home values are indeed going to continue to plummet based on the ongoing supply and demand imbalance for real estate.  The month&#039;s supply of housing is the metric that you want to be following.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two things about those graphs.</p>
<p>The ratio of house prices to rent is a bit skewed because rents are so low because of the supply and demand for rental real estate.  I have never thought this to be a valuable metric as it assumes everybody can go out and get a loan for a home.</p>
<p>The second graph omits mortgage rates which has a significant impact on affordability.  Right now, housing affordability is actually the highest on record for the 3.5 decades that the NAR has been tracknig the data.</p>
<p>With all of that being said, home values are indeed going to continue to plummet based on the ongoing supply and demand imbalance for real estate.  The month&#8217;s supply of housing is the metric that you want to be following.</p>
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		<title>By: bonghiteric</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-147755</link>
		<dc:creator>bonghiteric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147755</guid>
		<description>Hoffer, you pedant, it was a quote from The Big Lebowski.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoffer, you pedant, it was a quote from The Big Lebowski.</p>
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		<title>By: Avl Dao</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-2/#comment-147736</link>
		<dc:creator>Avl Dao</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147736</guid>
		<description>@ danm Says: 2/21 at 10:10 am 
A good number of folks born between 1960-1970 were flippers and buyers via NINJA loans (my generation).  We were being ‘dumbed-downed’ by a burgeoning realtor pitch to be the dupes to bailout the boomers in a decade or two, but thank goodness the market crashed first.

@ franklin411 2/21 at 10:27 am 
Good points.  A renaissance in local manufacturing and a big movement towards local production models are part of a solution that is financially and environmentally sustainable. Re-unionizing will be tricky, and it alone wont put a solid floor under wages as long as our GDP has a strong import component tied to lower-wage overseas exporters.  If capital markets do NOT emerge from this global crisis resembling their former selves, perhaps the needed local manufacturers that do emerge can use a worker-owned ownership model. Big IF there on capital markets.

A 25-yr commitment to anything is extremely unlikely if the current economic crisis brings a repeat of the last structural economic upheaval of 1973-1982 when the US kicked mfg to the curb and embraced a Service based economy with debt-fueled consumer spending driving 70% of GDP. 1973-1982 saw us cycle thru 4 Presidents.  To bad people assume economic crisis only yield electoral stability ala Roosevelt’s 4 wins in the 30s &amp; 40s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ danm Says: 2/21 at 10:10 am<br />
A good number of folks born between 1960-1970 were flippers and buyers via NINJA loans (my generation).  We were being ‘dumbed-downed’ by a burgeoning realtor pitch to be the dupes to bailout the boomers in a decade or two, but thank goodness the market crashed first.</p>
<p>@ franklin411 2/21 at 10:27 am<br />
Good points.  A renaissance in local manufacturing and a big movement towards local production models are part of a solution that is financially and environmentally sustainable. Re-unionizing will be tricky, and it alone wont put a solid floor under wages as long as our GDP has a strong import component tied to lower-wage overseas exporters.  If capital markets do NOT emerge from this global crisis resembling their former selves, perhaps the needed local manufacturers that do emerge can use a worker-owned ownership model. Big IF there on capital markets.</p>
<p>A 25-yr commitment to anything is extremely unlikely if the current economic crisis brings a repeat of the last structural economic upheaval of 1973-1982 when the US kicked mfg to the curb and embraced a Service based economy with debt-fueled consumer spending driving 70% of GDP. 1973-1982 saw us cycle thru 4 Presidents.  To bad people assume economic crisis only yield electoral stability ala Roosevelt’s 4 wins in the 30s &amp; 40s.</p>
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		<title>By: toddie.g</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-1/#comment-147639</link>
		<dc:creator>toddie.g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:50:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147639</guid>
		<description>@ river .....interesting anecdotal story about your sister and San Diego real estate.....keep in mind that the income vs house prices and cost to own vs cost to rent are national numbers...in San Diego and other bubble areas, the ratios got even more out of whack.  It would be very interesting to know what the very local ratios are in bubble areas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ river &#8230;..interesting anecdotal story about your sister and San Diego real estate&#8230;..keep in mind that the income vs house prices and cost to own vs cost to rent are national numbers&#8230;in San Diego and other bubble areas, the ratios got even more out of whack.  It would be very interesting to know what the very local ratios are in bubble areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/02/no-housing-recovery-before-further-declines/comment-page-1/#comment-147585</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=19712#comment-147585</guid>
		<description>spigzone:

I hear you about Duncan Clarke, it&#039;s part of the reason I posted that inkblot, though I find curious that &quot;Big Oil&quot; gets blamed for supporting the, supposedly wrong, case of &#039;no GW&#039;, and, also, here, at least, blamed for supporting the &#039;no peak oil&#039; case..

though, this: &quot;Of course that is only a FRACTION of the data I am basing my posts on. I got very very busy studying this in depth, getting on the ‘internets’ for the first time and then buying a computer etc., from the very day I finished Mr. Simmons book in Aug. 2005, which was actually purchased by the librarian in my town’s teensy weensy 300 sq. ft. library based on it being on the top ten Amazon list and the FIRST part of it’s title. “Twilight in the Desert’. The librarian thought she was buying a romance novel for her almost exclusively female clientele. I happened in the day after it arrived, GRABBED it, and read it through with one 4 hour sleep break.&quot;  certainly, recommends your spirit of inquiry..which, especially on this topic, is Paramount, in order to wade through the tremendous volumes of information found--pro and con..

here&#039;s another snippet:

&quot;“Supply crunch” is not peak oil - IEA 
Posted on Wednesday, November 7th, 2007 
There is no contradiction between the International Energy Agency’s forecast of long term oil supply growth to 2030 and a “supply crunch” by 2015, according to its chief economist Fatih Birol. Mr Birol insisted today that the short term crisis would not be caused by a fundamental shortage of oil but by entirely man-made factors. 

Speaking at the launch of the IEA’s latest World Energy Outlook in London, Mr Birol reiterated both the Agency’s long term forecast that oil production will reach 116 million barrels per day in 2030 - up from around 86 mb/d today - and the evidence that supply will fail to to meet demand much sooner. The IEA’s reference case demand forecast requires an additional 37.5 mb/d in gross production capacity by the middle of the next decade, but new projects announced so far by oil companies will add only 25 mb/d, leaving a shortfall of 12.5 mb/d. 

In answer to a question from lastoilshock.com, Mr Birol denied there was any contradiction between the two predictions, because any short-term crisis would be solely due to above-ground factors: “What we are saying is we could have a supply crunch to 2015 if we do not see enough investments coming to the markets, if we do not see production growing at a level to compensate the declines and meet the demand, and if the oil demand growth is not dampened in the OECD countries, China and India.” 
http://www.davidstrahan.com/blog/?p=73
http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=web&amp;lng=&amp;q=not+peak+oil

also, &quot;peak oil hoax&quot; makes for an interesting input to your fave i-net searcher..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spigzone:</p>
<p>I hear you about Duncan Clarke, it&#8217;s part of the reason I posted that inkblot, though I find curious that &#8220;Big Oil&#8221; gets blamed for supporting the, supposedly wrong, case of &#8216;no GW&#8217;, and, also, here, at least, blamed for supporting the &#8216;no peak oil&#8217; case..</p>
<p>though, this: &#8220;Of course that is only a FRACTION of the data I am basing my posts on. I got very very busy studying this in depth, getting on the ‘internets’ for the first time and then buying a computer etc., from the very day I finished Mr. Simmons book in Aug. 2005, which was actually purchased by the librarian in my town’s teensy weensy 300 sq. ft. library based on it being on the top ten Amazon list and the FIRST part of it’s title. “Twilight in the Desert’. The librarian thought she was buying a romance novel for her almost exclusively female clientele. I happened in the day after it arrived, GRABBED it, and read it through with one 4 hour sleep break.&#8221;  certainly, recommends your spirit of inquiry..which, especially on this topic, is Paramount, in order to wade through the tremendous volumes of information found&#8211;pro and con..</p>
<p>here&#8217;s another snippet:</p>
<p>&#8220;“Supply crunch” is not peak oil &#8211; IEA<br />
Posted on Wednesday, November 7th, 2007<br />
There is no contradiction between the International Energy Agency’s forecast of long term oil supply growth to 2030 and a “supply crunch” by 2015, according to its chief economist Fatih Birol. Mr Birol insisted today that the short term crisis would not be caused by a fundamental shortage of oil but by entirely man-made factors. </p>
<p>Speaking at the launch of the IEA’s latest World Energy Outlook in London, Mr Birol reiterated both the Agency’s long term forecast that oil production will reach 116 million barrels per day in 2030 &#8211; up from around 86 mb/d today &#8211; and the evidence that supply will fail to to meet demand much sooner. The IEA’s reference case demand forecast requires an additional 37.5 mb/d in gross production capacity by the middle of the next decade, but new projects announced so far by oil companies will add only 25 mb/d, leaving a shortfall of 12.5 mb/d. </p>
<p>In answer to a question from lastoilshock.com, Mr Birol denied there was any contradiction between the two predictions, because any short-term crisis would be solely due to above-ground factors: “What we are saying is we could have a supply crunch to 2015 if we do not see enough investments coming to the markets, if we do not see production growing at a level to compensate the declines and meet the demand, and if the oil demand growth is not dampened in the OECD countries, China and India.”<br />
<a href="http://www.davidstrahan.com/blog/?p=73" rel="nofollow">http://www.davidstrahan.com/blog/?p=73</a><br />
<a href="http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=web&#038;lng=&#038;q=not+peak+oil" rel="nofollow">http://www.icerocket.com/search?tab=web&#038;lng=&#038;q=not+peak+oil</a></p>
<p>also, &#8220;peak oil hoax&#8221; makes for an interesting input to your fave i-net searcher..</p>
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