The broadest measure of the current real estate/credit/economic crisis can be found in the foreclosure data. And just how improved is that data series these days?

Not very:

“More than 800,000 properties received foreclosure filings in the first quarter of 2009, according to RealtyTrac’s latest foreclosure report, released today. That was the highest quarterly total since RealtyTrac began issuing its numbers in the first quarter of 2005 despite a 13 percent decrease in bank repossessions (REOs) from the previous quarter. The increase was driven by a jump in default and auction notice filings on the front end of the foreclosure process, particularly in March when default notices were up 20 percent from the previous month and auction notices were up 29 percent from the previous month.”

Bloomberg adds:

“A flood of bank-owned properties is hitting the housing market as the U.S. recession deepens. The unemployment rate jumped to 8.5 percent in March, the highest since 1983, as 663,000 jobs were lost, according to the Labor Department. Home prices fell 19 percent in January from a year earlier, the fastest drop on record, according to the S&P Case/Shiller Index of 20 U.S. cities. The measure has fallen every month on a year-over-year basis since January 2007. Mortgage applications declined last week for the first time in a month, a sign that even with borrowing rates below 5 percent may not be enough to spur a housing recovery.”

So much for the vaunted bottom in Real Estate — and the broader economy . . .


Voluntary Foreclosure Abatements Ending (April 2009)

Foreclosure Activity Hits Record High in First Quarter
Foreclosure Pulse, April 16 2009

Foreclosure Filings in U.S. Climbed to Record in First Quarter
Dan Levy
Bloomberg, April 16 2009

Category: Markets

Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.

187 Responses to “Foreclosures Hit Record High in Q1”

  1. Transor Z says:

    @ Pea Brain: :)

    Wonder if Franklin is now advocating for supply destruction? Hmm. I mean, if cutting back on adding new supply is good, wouldn’t burning down existing stock be even better? (Especially if it’s crap like ben22 and MRegan point out)

  2. karen says:

    lb, churning or working off overbot… that is the question…

  3. DL says:

    Karen @ 12:06

    I say 725 before 900. I assume you disagree.

  4. Bruce N Tennessee says:

    Yes, Transor Z…even my wife calls me that..


  5. ben22,

    re: MON

    see: ABC Rural News (Australia)

    April 15, 2009 Wednesday 1:41 PM AEST

    86 words
    Germany bans GM corn plantings
    Germany has banned genetically modified corn from being planted this year.
    The German Agriculture Minister Ilse Aigner says she’s banning the cultivation of the corn to protect the environment.
    She says the decision to ban the MON 810 corn variety, produced by bio-technology company Monsanto, is also supported by the German Environment Ministry.
    MON 810 is the only GM crop that’s approved to be grown in the European Union.
    Five other countries – Luxembourg, France, Hungary Greece and Austria – also have bans on MON 810.

    something to keep an eye peeled for..

  6. MRegan says:


    I appreciated karen’s headsup on SHW and went just to look at a few numbers. AP informs that they reported Q1 of .32 eps and that guidance for Q2 is lower. if it’s trading @~13.8 ttm what is share price likely to be if Qs 2 3 and 4 produce 1.14 to 1.28?

    I am interested in hearing the bullish arguments, I don’t want “the world” to end, but I am not smart enough to understand the markets’ logic in trading at these prices. You see, (here’s where the thematic conceit is revealed), I think that the studs propping up market valuations have been pre-pulped and riddled with nails (delta hedge nails).

    There isn’t enough paint to cover up the mildew and rot. No amount of caulk can fill the gap…(did I go too far?)

  7. karen says:

    dl, obviously i go day by day. today is still telling me we see 870-880. that’s where the real resistance is imo. then, we see if 940 is obtainable… so far so good…

  8. karen says:

    MRegan, i operate under the premise that the markets are not logical… that, my inflation/reflation theme, and government meddling, means anything goes… TWINE goes without saying..

  9. Transor Z says:

    @ bruce: I don’t think I care to repeat what She Who Must Be Obeyed calls me…


  10. Bruce N Tennessee says:

    Yes, I too. Rumpole lives..

  11. Bruce N Tennessee says:;topStories

    2nd Largest U.S. Mall Operator Goes Bust

    Has anyone had any more thoughts today about CRE? We have managed to get to the lunch hour here at the salt mine…

  12. Mannwich says:

    CRE is toast but in fantasy-land, it’s doing just great.

  13. ben22 says:


    Yeah, I also agree with that. I’m also long EWZ right now, those were my two international allocations when I started to get long. I have made as much on brazil since I bought as I did with fxi but the profit is still very good.

  14. ben22 says:


    Yes, I just saw that link late last night when I was looking at some information on a few stocks I own. I sort of told myself the same thing, better keep an eye on that. Still long going into today though.

  15. ben22 says:

    I meant to say, “haven’t made as much on Brazil”

  16. Bruce N Tennessee says:

    Here is the sort of datum that interests me, when I get a minute….

    4/16/09 10 am….prices received….

    Ok…assuming that prices received have gotten nearly 1/3 worse than last month…(-41 from -32)…assuming this is apples to apples, are manufacturers putting everything on sale here to get out from under persistent inventory? Could this be the reason so many are cutting wages? Because they are not ringing the register, even if they make a sale? Just makes you wonder how these numbers are figured, and are we entering an era where the playing field is lowered for many years?

    Just wondering…

  17. MRegan says:

    Is Simon Property Group (SPG) immune to what ails General Growth?

    @karen, yes of course you are right- logic – I guess I meant to say “manner by which the market arrived at this conclusion which is reflected in the current price”. As for reflation, how does the Government/IBanks axis of levering achieve velocity? Millions of people in this country have been effectively subtracted from the economy. And millions more will be.

  18. ben22 says:


    Here is another article link on MON

    I’d be a lot more concerned if it were China or India instead of Europe but still worth paying attention to.

    the very last line of this article is what is really important.

  19. Transor Z says:

    Hmm… MEH and ben22:

    I wonder if the MON810 is causing the recent cannibalism/zombie incidents in New Orleans and in Woody Harrelson’s mind.

    MRegan: any comments?

  20. leftback says:

    SPG is going down. The Bears will be all over it once this happy-clappy rally is over.
    I hope they run this pig up into SPX 875 so we can short at bargain prices.

  21. karen says:

    lb, do you think you could be a bit less crude and rude? you are reminding me of cnbcsucks…

  22. bubba says:

    Karen says:
    lb, do you think you could be a bit less crude and rude? you are reminding me of cnbcsucks…

    perhaps a couple more adjectives…

    jack assy

  23. Mannwich says:

    Anecdotally on Bloomberg, seems like an awful lot of people recently are complacently bullish. Amazingly, I think complacency has actually set in again. Most of these “experts” seem to think it’s a forgone conclusion even amidst an epic global event, the likes of which nobody has seen or lived through before. Stunning arrogance.

  24. karen says:

    bubba, i happen to adore both cnbcsucks and lb, and was just teasing… i know they are just going for maximum effect and affect…

  25. karen says:

    Jeff, i haven’t been hanging around any bulls… i didn’t even read barron’s last weekend… but then, i don’t have a tv, either…

  26. Mannwich says:

    @karen: You’re probably better off without a TV. I hardly ever watch anymore. Only have a few shows that I watch and some sports. I’ve often thought of getting rid of it. Maybe someday if I live in a place with better weather!

  27. HCF says:

    @ Mannwich:

    Great point! How the heck did the market go from ultra-bearish to ultra-bullish in the blink of an eye? It seems like most of the MSM thinks we’ll be back at 14k lickety split. Any day now, the Empire strikes back!


  28. Mannwich says:

    I’m sure not certain I’m right (never am with these so called “markets” where everything is subject to manipulation) but I am stunned by the certitude of some of these “experts”. How can anyone be so certain of anything in this environment?

  29. hopeImwrong says:


    No tv. That results in automatic admiration from me. Got my wife to cancel cable last April 08, but then she went and got it re-installed in November.

    MARKET UPDATE: Buyers still in control. Shorts should be using tight stops, day trading, or watching patiently here.

  30. MRegan says:

    Listen Transor Z, just because I am completely delusional and morbidly frightened of zombies doesn’t mean that the crypto-fascists aren’t trying to drive the German people into a GM-corn fueled re-nazification! I guess being a robot makes it easier to yuck it up about the flesh bags and their fears.

    On a serious note, Monsanto operates in Peru under a subsidiary and have (maybe) been introducing their product into the agricultura despite legal barriers. Something very funny happened a month or so ago on the road from Camaná to el Mercado San Camilo- in a place called, yes, you guessed it, Uchumayo.

  31. HCF says:

    Speaking of sentiment, any thoughts from anyone on C tomorrow morning? Catalyst for rally or fall, or doesn’t matter either way?

    I’m guessing the earnings reports to a certain extent have been “coordinated” with the Feds as to paint a picture as rosy as possible… Therefore, I am actually guessing that the results tomorrow morning don’t matter one bit (unless they make or lose $100 billion, lol)…


  32. hopeImwrong says:

    If SRS dives on GGP bankruptcy, then C will rally if they report anything better than a bankruptcy. But, I’m not willing to place an order.

  33. karen says:

    MRegan, i can’t quite find out what happened, there was a fight between 2 towns over a piece of land? the story won’t load and what i can see of it is in spanish:

    Como el pez en la tierra
    Correo (Perú) – ‎Mar 27, 2009‎
    O la reciente pelea inexplicable, irracional e infantil entre Tiabaya y Uchumayo por un pedazo de terreno, como si ambos distritos fueran territorios …

  34. leftback says:

    bubba Says: perhaps a couple more adjectives..pretentious jack assy

    You’re welcome. Have a nice day. :-)

  35. MRegan says:


    aquí tienes:

    There was another report that had better info. I can’t find it now. When someone I know tried to approach Juan Manuel Guillén (presidente regional de Arequipa) there was a bit of a rebuff FWIW.

  36. DL says:

    hopeImwrong @ 1:20


  37. MRegan says:


    RE: Correo- the editor Aldo Mariátegui is a real character. His grandfather was Jose Carlos Mariátegui, an important ‘intellectual’/writer in the first third of the 20th century. Aldo’s cross is that the saner he strives to be the crazier he gets. It is a real trip to watch him. mucho hígado

  38. Transor Z says:

    Karen: Allow me to help. Here is the story run through Babelfish.

    Two hundred provided men with woods and stones to the 8:00 hours of yesterday, in km 4 of the variant of Uchumayo, stopped the march and the 2 trucks seized by Intendance of Customs of Arequipa took. The crowd attacked furiously against the intervening cash, because the heavy vehicles, with hybrid maize, of plates YH-3542, with tow ZH-3542 and the one of matriculation YH-3542 with cart ZH-3855 were taken part in the sentry box of customs control of San jOse. Product of this confrontation, SOB PNP Luis Choquehuayta was struck and undressed of its properties.

    I think that will help clear up the confusion. :)

  39. Bruce N Tennessee says:

    Radical cheap: $1,000 homes

    “East Cleveland has a beautiful housing stock,” she said. “These houses just need someone to come in and love them a little.”

    I do enjoy talking with realtors…this woman could also try this dog on the ASPCA…

    “Of course, if you do buy in this area, an Uzi might be comforting at night…”

    (I made the last part up, Lefty….)

  40. hopeImwrong says:

    Looks like Monsanto got a hold of Babelfish to hide their corporate “secrets.”

  41. MRegan says:

    In Ica, Peru- Seminis. Babelfish doesn’t explain how 200 people got organized to go out to la variante de Uchumayo.

    Here’s some English for you:

  42. hopeImwrong says:

    The interesting thing about Monsanto’s seeds. Once they patent them, if they are found in nature, Monsanto still “owns” them. Even the ones found in nature are illegal to be used. They have sued farmers who never bought Monsanto seeds because the seeds had the same characteristics as the Monsanto seeds. The courts sided with Monsanto (US-Canada). With the proper cross pollination, Monsanto could end up owning… Well, I hope I’m wrong.

  43. karen says:

    MRegan and Tranzor, I’ve just emailed an acquaintance that is or was living nearby. The timing is perfect as I was just thinking of him when I saw the base on $copper today… he’s an analyst specializing in mining companies.

  44. Transor Z says:

    There were stories a few years ago about disputes between Monsanto and non-buyer corn farmers in the Midwest. Something about honeybees pollenating neighbors’ corn crops with GM cornflower pollen.

  45. Transor Z says:

    Here’s an article about GM corn pollen spread by bees killing monarch butterflies:

  46. hopeImwrong says:


    That’s one of the problems. The GM pollen can mess up non-GM seeds.

    But, there is also the problem of GM-similar natural seeds and crops being “owned” by Monsanto (post-patent), and becoming illegal to use even if you have used them for decades before the GM crops were patented. It’s like someone can create a cow in a test tube, and then some cows are illegal to buy and sell unless you buy from the test tube cow patent holder because they look the same. Your cows, which are not test tube cows, become the property of the patent holder.

    I think the courts have a lot of difficulty with technical and scientific (and statistical) issues. There’s not a lot of scientists on the bench.

  47. karen says:

    Transor, sent that off to my beekeeper friend.. he’s been a professional beekeeper for about 40 years… was wiped out by montana ranchers’ use of pesticides and returned to sb, ca full time… he’s one of the hardest working people i know.

  48. DL says:

    hopeImwrong @ 2:20

    “The interesting thing about Monsanto’s seeds. Once they patent them, if they are found in nature, Monsanto still owns them. Even the ones found in nature”.

    Is it really true that they obtained a patent for a naturally occurring seed that they did not modify in any way (and which is not equivalent to a genetically modified seed)…? If they did secure such a patent, it would probably not survive a court challenge.

  49. MRegan says:


    I am going to guess otto is his name. Tell him ‘el mundo es un pañuelo deshilachado’.

    I still think the game is Peruvian rice to Argentina, bull semen to China, money to Switzerland (or was that Swaziland?).

    inka kola news mejor que bimbú bulletin (that is old school Sullana smackdown)

  50. YouthInAsia says:

    Any ideas why SRS is getting creamed today? I thought I was going to be safe to get in at 32 without worry about any sort of a stop, wtf?

  51. ben22 says:

    it’s amazing watching the conversation here about Monsanto and what they do with seeds. MON is the largest long in my portfolio since last November. Seems like more people are catching on to what they really do and how they really work.

  52. karen says:

    MRegan, no his name is mark…

  53. hopeImwrong says:


    They don’t have a patent on a natural seed. It is modified. The difficulty is if the modified seed is found where no one “bought” it from Monsanto. Either through cross pollination, accidental contamination, or some quark of nature. Different products will have different odds of showing up like that. Monsanto assumes they need to control the “patented” seed and crop no matter how or where they show up. It’s a business model.

  54. hopeImwrong says:


    I’m bullish on MON too. I think there is a possibility AG will be the next Gov’t “protected” industry. Not as extreme as financials, but they will write there own ticket, and their own legislation.

  55. MRegan says:

    Well, Karen, wasn’t the first time I was wildly off the…yeah you got it
    and it won’t be the last. Maybe I ‘otto’ think before I type and post drunk.

  56. hopeImwrong says:

    Youth In Asia,

    Big short squeeze, shorts still too over confident. They doubled down on GGP bankruptcy. Shorts are totally keeping this market going.

    MARKET UPDATE: Buyers still in control. Shorts should be using tight stops, day trading, or watching patiently here.

  57. Outlier says:

    MON also has about as ethically a challenged a business model you can find short of killing for cash…

  58. Mannwich says:

    Watching, slowly raising cash. Getting hammered a bit in the meantime, but I can wait.

  59. Transor Z says:

    @Karen: I think that was a pretty old article, so your friend might already knows about that. I appear to be at an age where something I remembered “from a few years ago” turns out to have happened, like, 10 years ago. ;)

    I don’t keep up with biotech IP law. Sucks to be me, since I live in the Boston/Cambridge area.

    One of the really funny things about law is all of the anachronisms you see trotted out in court opinions when new and weird kinds of property is discovered. They try like heck to find the right cubbyhole to put things in.

    I don’t know if they still teach it in law school but there was a famous case from out your way, Karen, where some poor schmuck got enrolled in a clinical study at one of the CA state medical campuses and they kept asking him to come in for blood draws. Turned out, he was something like a one-in-a-billion producer of a special kind of cell with powerful healing properties of some kind or another. They discovered it accidentally early on in the study and were collecting samples of his cells to understand and exploit a new cell line — nothing to do directly with the study. Kaching, kaching.

    A guy in my law school class was an MD-PhD and he shared that he was aware of the particular line and said it had generated “billions” in sales and was one of the most therapeutically significant cell lines to date. Schmuck’s own cell line was patented and he never saw a dime. California Supreme Court upheld it. So there you go.

  60. DL says:

    hopeImwrong @ 2:50

    “The difficulty is if the modified seed is found where no one “bought” it from Monsanto. Either through cross pollination…”

    I take it you don’t agree with the court decision. Suppose the cross-pollination is deliberate? All the money that Monsanto spent on research would be for nothing; nobody would buy their seeds.

  61. hopeImwrong says:

    outlier @3:01pm

    That’s why I think they are up for US Gov’t “preferred industry status.”

  62. ben22 says:


    I speculated about that same thing on here with Mark H, about a month ago. Obama has been going after small farmers since he got in, it’s just getting lost with all the headline stuff like AIG bonuses or whatever else is hot at the moment. I love MON the stock, the company, not so much. I hope that doesn’t put me in the same category as the banksters but I’m just trying to make money off of it.

    I think some people were playing MOS as well or even POT, Mannwhich made some money on that (MOS) I think.

    I really like ag. moving forward and have actually even considered buying some farm land back where I grew up. this is why I also own some CAT now, but not a lot, I picked up 200 shares on a limit order at $26.50.

    I bought a little DBA not long ago, it’s basically done nothing since I got in, I think I’m down like 5 or 6% in it.

  63. karen says:

    MRegan, ha ha ha. Loved the pañuelo deshilachado’ expression…

  64. DiggidyDan says:

    The much hyped Obama Administration Home Affordable Refinance program is a complete crock and PR program to quell the pitchfork wielding masses tactic. I know because I tried.

    First, the 5% threshold is crap because most who need the assistance are more than 5% under. Second, I could have probably fit in the threshold, but the rates Fannie was using were utter BS. They were charging a 1% premium on the days average rate to meet their “risk model” profile that allowed them to sell the mortgages as I was told by my mortgage bank representative, plus 1.5 points for various risk factors depending upon how underwater you were, credit score, income, etc., plus closing costs. Bottom line, it ended up being about 2.5% higher than the going rate, which put it at 7.25 at the time I asked. Not such a good deal.

    I went apeshit on the guy and asked him why the hell they would charge a premium for risk so they can sell it when it’s the F’ng government that is buying them anyway, i.e. ME! Then I told him I was going to look for a comparable foreclosed home I can pay cash for and live in for seven years and let them foreclose on the one i’m living in now and the bank can get bent. (Which I’m not gonna do, I was just pissed off and felt like yelling at the poor bastard to ease my wish to stick it to the man) He said I could always qualify down the road to refinance if values recover. Hahaha, dude didn’t even know who Robert Shiller was or what his index says. What a douche. I hope they lose enough money to go BK.

  65. karen says:

    Transor, lol, yup, the article was 10 years old… and running with MRegan’s thot of the day, “el mundo es un pañuelo,” I lived on Lexington Ave near Fresh Pond for 18 months… Still have my canvas Bread & Circus bag.

    I’ll have to send my beekeeper friend a “nevermind” now.

  66. hopeImwrong says:

    DL – RE: court decisions

    The opinion I have about the court decisions is, they are made in a vacuum of ignorance. That doesn’t imply right or wrong. The loose ends of the GM AG business are not being addressed properly because of superficially made court decisions. There are possible mechanisms to handle these issues, and support a GM AG industry. I’m not against GM. I’m against the powerful recklessly using their power to profit. Same with Banks, same with Gov’t.

    The deal here is just that the courts aren’t solving the problems. They are just issuing decisions. So, contamination (accidental or deliberate) will continue. And the little guy will not win.

    Monsanto gains by deliberate contamination regardless of who deliberately does it.

    I’m against anyone stealing Monsanto seeds or technology, but they don’t have to prove it was stolen, only that it is possessed without payment to Monsanto. I actually think we need new agricultural (AG) zoning to separate GM from non-GM with buffer zones. Or something to prevent accidental contamination. Right now MON has the power, and they are using it.

  67. DL says:

    hopeImwrong @ 3:16

    “So, contamination (accidental or deliberate) will continue. And the little guy will not win”

    If the courts and the Congress were unwilling to protect Monsanto’s monopoly, there would be no R&D (funded by private sources). The little guy would “win” only in the short run.

    It’s a tradeoff.

  68. hopeImwrong says:

    Ben22@3:07 – The groundwork is being laid, and even the congress doesn’t know what they (themselves) are putting in place. They don’t look for unintended consequences in the bills they pass, and they often don’t even have time to read them. Monsanto bought enough influence to get some laws passed.

  69. Transor Z says:

    Know the area well. A buddy of mine likes to go into that store (Whole Foods now) and demand to know why they don’t carry Guns ‘n’ Ammo on their magazine rack.

  70. wunsacon says:

    Transor Z, Steve Barry, I share your outrage/amazement.

    >> Franklin411 must be the guy that was always bullish on this blog…I honestly forgot his name (not trying to be funny).

    Steve, I think you’re thinking of “cinefoz”. But, cinefoz wasn’t always bullish — just somehow picked up the reputation for it and never shook it.

    Personally, I can see Franklin’s points and, as usual, am treading water (going nowhere) because I lack enough conviction either way. I believe the economy is getting worse but am not sure of the effects of government intervention on nominal prices.

  71. hopeImwrong says:

    dl 3:22

    I just want balance. One sided power eventually causes big problems. It can take a long time, but balance and justice are not far apart.

    Almost everyone thought the banks could be proper stewards of the power they were given. There was no balance there either.

    As I said, I’m not for anyone stealing from Monsanto. If someone steal they need to go to jail. But, a different game is being played here.

  72. Mannwich says:

    It was jmborchers who was always bullish, although he changed his mind oftentimes by the minute in the same day. Was hard to keep track of his views minute to minute, day to day……

  73. plantseeds says:


    i think you’re assuming to much of J6P however; regarding the budget deficit, I also believe that the current administration has about quadrupled what it took the last crew 6-8 years to accomplish, that’s impressive, to the tune of 20+% of GDP? maybe that has something to do with it, i have no idea, i am not one to stand around and protest however i do not criticize those who choose to exercise that freedom.

    Ben22 – every criminal says they’re innocent, you should know that. i’ve heard plenty about Mr. Armstrong but never really took the time to get the “facts” but he sounda like scumbag to me. You can add him to your list of people who don’t matter.

  74. Mannwich says:

    @plantseeds: Interesting that you make no mention of the turd sandwich the prior administration dumped into O’s lap. Figures.

  75. ben22 says:

    @ plantseeds,

    That may be true about Armstrong, might not, I got that link from here the other day. I never heard of him before that.

    Do you think this new guy GS is going after is a liar. Why is GS so worried about shutting him down. Are they going to lose biz based on what he is saying. LOL. No.

    That said, did you actually read the link? All the way? Do you really think he (Armstrong) is lying and Goldman Sachs is clean as can be or that Warren Buffett has never done anything wrong? Why would he lie, he already went to jail, what point is lying now. I suppose he could be trying to clear his name?

    For me, when you rub shoulders with the elite, you do matter, so Armstrong does. Johnny Smith from Sacramento, that went to the tea party on his lunch break yesterday, he still doesn’t matter. He’s already been forgotten about today, except for the radio talk show hosts who think it was the start of some massive rebirth of the GOP.

    At the end of the day, all these people I heard intereviewed at this rally, they didn’t even know what they were protesting against, the answers to why they were there told you that. Further, as I said yesterday, the reality is, many of them were probably also a big part of this problem so I have no problem at all making critical remarks towards these people. For people that want to live in ignorance, they deserve what they get. On top of protest, last I checked, you have the right to search for facts every now and then. That usually makes sense before verbally giving an opinion on a topic.

  76. karen,

    if your friend is that kind of hardcore beekeeper, he’s probably up on the GMO–CCD in bees link..

    spelled out: Genetically Modified Organisms linked to Colony Collapse Disorder in bees..

  77. Transor Z says:

    Interesting… The Goldman666 guy announced that this guy:

    is now his official spokesperson. Neocon or libertarian? Curious.

  78. Transor Z says:

    Yep, Tea Party dude.

    This is curious…

  79. DeDude says:

    If the little guy starts using round-up on the crop then it is obvious he contaminated his own crop. If he doesn’t then it is either accident or Monsanto wanting to use its power to suck dry and punish those who refuse to shift to their product. The ruling was absurd and shows what happens when you allow right wingers and corporation to take over government.

  80. plantseeds says:

    figures? you say that like you know me – interesting. i side with no one on the budget issue, i think you have to have been there to be able to speak about it in a way that is not Monday morning QB like. perhaps i should have clarified, what was handed down was obviously (to me, and you apparently) less than ideal. my point is that i believe most of those at the rally are comming around to the fact that govt spending is dangerously out of hand. if it takes right wing AM radio idiots to get the word out so be it. the herd follows the leader. most people don’t seem to really get motivated until some media pundit gets them going, left,center, or right . i think it’s healthy either way.

    i do agree with Ben22′s point, i doubt most if these folks really get what it’s all about, left center or right, they just repeat what their “master” says, but somewhere, someone is being inspired, getting involved, ideas are sparking and good things will come of it. I believe that.

    i didn;t read any of the link, i will though, just not on the “the man’s” dime.
    I certainly don’t think GS is all clean but i’m not ready to break out the tin foil hat just yet.

    “many of them were probably also a big part of this problem”

    not sure how you make that connection but perhaps.

    “Johnny Smith from Sacramento, that went to the tea party on his lunch break yesterday, he still doesn’t matter. ”

    i think it’s too early to say.

    ” last I checked, you have the right to search for facts every now and then. That usually makes sense before verbally giving an opinion on a topic.”


  81. DeDude says:


    >> I also believe that the current administration has about quadrupled what it took the last crew 6-8 years to accomplish<<

    No all they did was to stop calling everything an emergency spending and therefore leaving it out of the official budget and counted/projected deficit spending. Yes it looks pretty bad but it is not that much worse than before. The previous crew added $7 Trillion to the national debt in 8 years where we actually had economic growth (baring a tiny little ressesion in the beginning). The current crew is dealing with the worst ressesion since the great depression and has no other choice than massive deficit spending to prevent it from getting a lot worse.

    Deficit spending is allowable and sensible as a tool to combat a severe ressesion. It is inexcusable if you have a growing economy and use it to fund taxcuts for the rich.

  82. ben22 says:

    plant seeds,

    Here is how I make the connection, as an example.

    The hose of the show I listened to made this comment:

    “where is my bailout for the first and second mortgage on my house”

    I’ll let you think about why he is then part of the problem. You know what I mean.

    I like your optimism, most of mine has been sucked dry the last 18 months.

  83. ben22 says:

    I mean host of the show.

  84. plantseeds says:

    “where is my bailout for the first and second mortgage on my house”

    LOL – maybe you did mean the hose of the show.
    i don’t think that necessarily means the rally goers are in the same sinking boat but who knows, maybe they are if they listen to that fool (no disrespect to anyone with 2 mortgages on the same house).
    I hear what you’re saying though, all good points.


    two wrongs don’t make a right, i don’t think it’s sustainable.
    where’s all the money going to come from? justifiable tax increases due to a rapid growth of GDP?
    i hope so but i don’t think so.
    doesn’t matter if it’s GOP, dems, conserv, libs. just because GWB was an idiot doesn’t mean we should continue down the same path IMO and i think worst thing people can do is put their heads in the sand even if it is late in the game.
    and i also don’t agree with the following, “no other choice than massive deficit spending to prevent it from getting a lot worse”.
    but that argument was over and done with a few months ago.

  85. DeDude says:


    I have no problem with the idea that debt should only be accumulated when absolutely needed (and that would be right now). What I have a probleem with is people who go to Fox tea-parties now but didn’t say a peep back when we accumulated debt without any justification (ressesion). I have a problem with reporters who parotted “defecits don’t matter” when it was said by a concervative, but now are horrified by deficits and what they will do to the future. Back then there was no excuse for running up the debt (yes GWB and GOP were reckless idiots), now there is a very strong argument that we need to increase spending and hold back on taxes to fill the $ 2 trillion hole in private sector aggregate demand that this severe ressesion has created. And in the reality based world there is no discussion about the fact that when consumption disappear then GDP goes down (70% of GDP is consumption).

    The difference between the current deficit spending plan and the GWB/GOP deficit spending plan of the early 2000’s, is that the current plan is limiting itself to 2 years, and then will pay back debt by increasing taxes on those with high income. The GWB/GOP plan was to have this insane 10 years of giveaway to the rich and then by some miracle (and in direct conflict with previous taxcut experiences) the economy was supposed to grow and pay it al away.

  86. call me ahab says:

    say what