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	<title>Comments on: Market Rally: 1974 or 1982?</title>
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		<title>By: The &#8216;38th Parallel &#124; The Big Picture</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-175113</link>
		<dc:creator>The &#8216;38th Parallel &#124; The Big Picture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 14:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-175113</guid>
		<description>[...] Market Rally: 1974 or 1982? (May 5th, 2009) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Market Rally: 1974 or 1982? (May 5th, 2009) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Knowledge is Power: Red Budget Edition &#124; TopForeignStocks.com</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168262</link>
		<dc:creator>Knowledge is Power: Red Budget Edition &#124; TopForeignStocks.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 23:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168262</guid>
		<description>[...] 4. Over the past month, I have heard quite a few people declare this to be the start of a new bull market. The kindest thing I can say in response to that is the jury is still out, but the weight of the evidence is inconclusive. Market Rally: 1974 or 1982? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 4. Over the past month, I have heard quite a few people declare this to be the start of a new bull market. The kindest thing I can say in response to that is the jury is still out, but the weight of the evidence is inconclusive. Market Rally: 1974 or 1982? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jojo</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168217</link>
		<dc:creator>Jojo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 21:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168217</guid>
		<description>I always like to repost this when 1974 is mentioned:

From a newsletter dated 5/12/1997 written by Jay Shartsis of R.F. Laffery &amp; Co..

1974 - What does a real market bottom feel like?
http://www.box.net/shared/ziq3ip0cgs</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always like to repost this when 1974 is mentioned:</p>
<p>From a newsletter dated 5/12/1997 written by Jay Shartsis of R.F. Laffery &amp; Co..</p>
<p>1974 &#8211; What does a real market bottom feel like?<br />
<a href="http://www.box.net/shared/ziq3ip0cgs" rel="nofollow">http://www.box.net/shared/ziq3ip0cgs</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob_in_MA</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168204</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob_in_MA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 20:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168204</guid>
		<description>One fairly major point left out by those comparing this the 1970s/80s: inflation.

During the 1974/75 recession, asset prices of households and businesses ROSE. This time they’re falling. Equity prices fell 48% in 21 months, the value of corporate assets, from 1972 to 1974 rose 35%!! From 2007 to 2008 they fell 3%.

Equities fell about the same %, and in each case the Q ratio was around .9 at the market top, but at the 1974 bottom it was half (ca .3) what is was in 2008 (ca .6, close to the long term average).

This mindless comparing of graphs is really silly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One fairly major point left out by those comparing this the 1970s/80s: inflation.</p>
<p>During the 1974/75 recession, asset prices of households and businesses ROSE. This time they’re falling. Equity prices fell 48% in 21 months, the value of corporate assets, from 1972 to 1974 rose 35%!! From 2007 to 2008 they fell 3%.</p>
<p>Equities fell about the same %, and in each case the Q ratio was around .9 at the market top, but at the 1974 bottom it was half (ca .3) what is was in 2008 (ca .6, close to the long term average).</p>
<p>This mindless comparing of graphs is really silly.</p>
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		<title>By: cvienne</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168158</link>
		<dc:creator>cvienne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 18:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168158</guid>
		<description>@leftback

It seems that many of us (the dumber ones - yours truly included), have been kicked in the ass by these ULTRASHORT ETF&#039;s (FAZ - SRS - etc.)...

I&#039;ll tell you something though...I&#039;m simply going to hold onto the SRS for as long as possible and see where it goes...If it goes to zero...screw it (its just a small piece anyway)...Think about it, if you use SPG as a proxy (the largest and most respected component or CRE indices), it&#039;s trading at a 6.0 PEG ratio and over 30 P/E...Now I know you can generally toss out numbers like that, but tell me where the &quot;G&quot; is going to come from in the future...Donald Trump himself says he can&#039;t get financing for anything commercial, and the consumer is tapped out...Unless the &quot;anchor&quot; stores (like Nordy&#039;s &amp; JC Penney decide to buy up all the sq/ft. and pay 2006 prices for them, I see SPG and others going the way of General Growth...And the &quot;G&quot; didn&#039;t work out for them all that well did it?

I&#039;ll give you a DIFFERENT perspective on the 2x ETF (that the &#039;mathies&#039; may have figured out awhile back)...Think about it...it&#039;s &quot;directional&quot;...There are TWO different aspects of &quot;directional&quot; on an &quot;x&quot; &amp; &quot;y&quot; matrix (time and amplitude)...If you do a comparison on SPG to SRS in the short term, the numbers are skewed, but over longer timeframes, they actually do converge and revert to a mean...To give you a START on that I&#039;ll use the following dates...OCTOBER &#039;07 HIGH (SRS around 72)...SRS absolute high...(for fun let&#039;s call it 216 because the &quot;spike&quot; higher was an anomality)...So you had a 3x move peak median to peak during the market selloff...Over time, you&#039;d expect to have a -3x median to trough move off a 72 base...72 divided by 3 = 24...Now these numbers aren&#039;t exact...If you wanted to get wild and wooly, you could say that the SRS peaked at 273 on 11/21/08...That&#039;s almost a 3.8x multiple...So let&#039;s say the decline could have the same amplitude (72 divided by 3.8 equals 18.94)...

What I&#039;m saying is this...And trust me, I don&#039;t know if my theory is going to be correct or not...But I&#039;d say that we&#039;d be looking at 15.00 - 19.00 as the ultimate spike bottom for the SRS...You could arrive at that range another way...Let&#039;s say that SPG decides to go up and &quot;technically&quot; visit it&#039;s 200 day MA (even though old &quot;Goldy&quot; has the habit of taking it off its conviction buy list at $46)...Well, that&#039;s another 13% move off its recent peak...So if you 2x that and calculate the impact LOW on SRS...You&#039;d put yourself in the same range ($15.54 to be exact - but even that print would only be a brief blowout, unless you think even the &quot;Goldy&quot; conspirators are going to bid up the SPG to it&#039;s all time highs...

Again, this is all a THEORY...But THAT&#039;s why I&#039;m holding on to my stupid little SRS position even though the price is WAY DOWN off my cost basis...At $21...I&#039;m looking at maybe another 30% loss (say if I entered here and/or committed ZERO more capital to the position)...But a reversion to mean (over time based on when the market corrects and/or when even &quot;Goldy&quot; decides it would rather buy GOOGLE with a 1.1 PEG instead of SPG at a 6.0 PEG), says that as a the market eventually puts in a bottom (which means SPG either does a fibonacci retracement off it&#039;s lows, does a full retest, or actually breaks lower - which I think is possible)...You&#039;re looking at a move back to somewhere between 45-72 on SRS (and &quot;gravy&quot; on top of that if somehow the market REALLY tests the bottom when Congress is on recess, Obama is in Hawaii, and Bernanke is in Jackson Hole, or whatever the hell he does when he&#039;s not printing money - let&#039;s call that date MID-AUGUST)...

So I don&#039;t know...I can take buying at $21...sucking up a 25% loss...then selling at a double or triple if the planets align...

It&#039;s just an experiment...

For all of you who are reading my words for the first time...I appreciate your patience...This was kind of long winded...I&#039;ve had PASSWORD RESOLUTION issues trying to post here b4 but hopefully now that&#039;s resolved...

I READ &quot;all&quot; of your comments (and have mentally categorized you REGULARS)...I think you ALL are very bright and I enjoy your insights and anecdotes...

CV</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@leftback</p>
<p>It seems that many of us (the dumber ones &#8211; yours truly included), have been kicked in the ass by these ULTRASHORT ETF&#8217;s (FAZ &#8211; SRS &#8211; etc.)&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll tell you something though&#8230;I&#8217;m simply going to hold onto the SRS for as long as possible and see where it goes&#8230;If it goes to zero&#8230;screw it (its just a small piece anyway)&#8230;Think about it, if you use SPG as a proxy (the largest and most respected component or CRE indices), it&#8217;s trading at a 6.0 PEG ratio and over 30 P/E&#8230;Now I know you can generally toss out numbers like that, but tell me where the &#8220;G&#8221; is going to come from in the future&#8230;Donald Trump himself says he can&#8217;t get financing for anything commercial, and the consumer is tapped out&#8230;Unless the &#8220;anchor&#8221; stores (like Nordy&#8217;s &amp; JC Penney decide to buy up all the sq/ft. and pay 2006 prices for them, I see SPG and others going the way of General Growth&#8230;And the &#8220;G&#8221; didn&#8217;t work out for them all that well did it?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll give you a DIFFERENT perspective on the 2x ETF (that the &#8216;mathies&#8217; may have figured out awhile back)&#8230;Think about it&#8230;it&#8217;s &#8220;directional&#8221;&#8230;There are TWO different aspects of &#8220;directional&#8221; on an &#8220;x&#8221; &amp; &#8220;y&#8221; matrix (time and amplitude)&#8230;If you do a comparison on SPG to SRS in the short term, the numbers are skewed, but over longer timeframes, they actually do converge and revert to a mean&#8230;To give you a START on that I&#8217;ll use the following dates&#8230;OCTOBER &#8217;07 HIGH (SRS around 72)&#8230;SRS absolute high&#8230;(for fun let&#8217;s call it 216 because the &#8220;spike&#8221; higher was an anomality)&#8230;So you had a 3x move peak median to peak during the market selloff&#8230;Over time, you&#8217;d expect to have a -3x median to trough move off a 72 base&#8230;72 divided by 3 = 24&#8230;Now these numbers aren&#8217;t exact&#8230;If you wanted to get wild and wooly, you could say that the SRS peaked at 273 on 11/21/08&#8230;That&#8217;s almost a 3.8x multiple&#8230;So let&#8217;s say the decline could have the same amplitude (72 divided by 3.8 equals 18.94)&#8230;</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m saying is this&#8230;And trust me, I don&#8217;t know if my theory is going to be correct or not&#8230;But I&#8217;d say that we&#8217;d be looking at 15.00 &#8211; 19.00 as the ultimate spike bottom for the SRS&#8230;You could arrive at that range another way&#8230;Let&#8217;s say that SPG decides to go up and &#8220;technically&#8221; visit it&#8217;s 200 day MA (even though old &#8220;Goldy&#8221; has the habit of taking it off its conviction buy list at $46)&#8230;Well, that&#8217;s another 13% move off its recent peak&#8230;So if you 2x that and calculate the impact LOW on SRS&#8230;You&#8217;d put yourself in the same range ($15.54 to be exact &#8211; but even that print would only be a brief blowout, unless you think even the &#8220;Goldy&#8221; conspirators are going to bid up the SPG to it&#8217;s all time highs&#8230;</p>
<p>Again, this is all a THEORY&#8230;But THAT&#8217;s why I&#8217;m holding on to my stupid little SRS position even though the price is WAY DOWN off my cost basis&#8230;At $21&#8230;I&#8217;m looking at maybe another 30% loss (say if I entered here and/or committed ZERO more capital to the position)&#8230;But a reversion to mean (over time based on when the market corrects and/or when even &#8220;Goldy&#8221; decides it would rather buy GOOGLE with a 1.1 PEG instead of SPG at a 6.0 PEG), says that as a the market eventually puts in a bottom (which means SPG either does a fibonacci retracement off it&#8217;s lows, does a full retest, or actually breaks lower &#8211; which I think is possible)&#8230;You&#8217;re looking at a move back to somewhere between 45-72 on SRS (and &#8220;gravy&#8221; on top of that if somehow the market REALLY tests the bottom when Congress is on recess, Obama is in Hawaii, and Bernanke is in Jackson Hole, or whatever the hell he does when he&#8217;s not printing money &#8211; let&#8217;s call that date MID-AUGUST)&#8230;</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t know&#8230;I can take buying at $21&#8230;sucking up a 25% loss&#8230;then selling at a double or triple if the planets align&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just an experiment&#8230;</p>
<p>For all of you who are reading my words for the first time&#8230;I appreciate your patience&#8230;This was kind of long winded&#8230;I&#8217;ve had PASSWORD RESOLUTION issues trying to post here b4 but hopefully now that&#8217;s resolved&#8230;</p>
<p>I READ &#8220;all&#8221; of your comments (and have mentally categorized you REGULARS)&#8230;I think you ALL are very bright and I enjoy your insights and anecdotes&#8230;</p>
<p>CV</p>
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		<title>By: Market Talk &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does Market Mirror 1982 or 1974?</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168117</link>
		<dc:creator>Market Talk &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Does Market Mirror 1982 or 1974?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 17:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168117</guid>
		<description>[...] it&#8217;s probably too early to tell, FusionIQ CEO Barry Ritholtz says investors should ponder whether this recent run-up mirrors 1982 or 1974. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] it&#8217;s probably too early to tell, FusionIQ CEO Barry Ritholtz says investors should ponder whether this recent run-up mirrors 1982 or 1974. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Effective Demand</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-2/#comment-168097</link>
		<dc:creator>Effective Demand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 16:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168097</guid>
		<description>@CNBC &lt;i&gt;&quot;The can has been kicked.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That does seem to be the plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@CNBC <i>&#8220;The can has been kicked.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That does seem to be the plan.</p>
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		<title>By: aitrader</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-1/#comment-168092</link>
		<dc:creator>aitrader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 16:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168092</guid>
		<description>Stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stayin&#039; alive..stayin&#039; alive

1975 maybe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stay, stay, stay, stay, stay, stayin&#8217; alive..stayin&#8217; alive</p>
<p>1975 maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: Pat G.</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-1/#comment-168091</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat G.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 16:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168091</guid>
		<description>I prefer disco over much of the foul mouth, ill intended music of today.  Besides it was easier to dance to.  I still feel that the &#039;70s period is more reflective of our current situation from a fiscal perspective.  Fleckenstein&#039;s latest article sums it up best.  While GDP has contracted by 6% in each of the last two quarters “prices of core personal consumption expenditures (a measure of inflation that Greenspan particularly focused on) rose 1.5% quarter to quarter, versus expectations of just 1%.  There was no deflation but rather inflation.&quot;  Remember these are government numbers so the rise was probably higher than reported.  When not if, oil and food prices start to rise again, it&#039;ll make a 1.5% rise in core personal consumption expenditures look tame.  Bernanke was asked by Paul today as to what the FED will do if inflation increases ty 8-10% while unemployment rises and the economy remains in a funk.  BB&#039;s response, &quot;That&#039;s not likely to occur&quot;.  We have never experienced anything like this downturn in our global history, yet this arrogant fool is so sure of what governments are doing that in effect; there is no plan on sopping up the liquidity that they&#039;re creating.  This will lead to runaway inflation levels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I prefer disco over much of the foul mouth, ill intended music of today.  Besides it was easier to dance to.  I still feel that the &#8217;70s period is more reflective of our current situation from a fiscal perspective.  Fleckenstein&#8217;s latest article sums it up best.  While GDP has contracted by 6% in each of the last two quarters “prices of core personal consumption expenditures (a measure of inflation that Greenspan particularly focused on) rose 1.5% quarter to quarter, versus expectations of just 1%.  There was no deflation but rather inflation.&#8221;  Remember these are government numbers so the rise was probably higher than reported.  When not if, oil and food prices start to rise again, it&#8217;ll make a 1.5% rise in core personal consumption expenditures look tame.  Bernanke was asked by Paul today as to what the FED will do if inflation increases ty 8-10% while unemployment rises and the economy remains in a funk.  BB&#8217;s response, &#8220;That&#8217;s not likely to occur&#8221;.  We have never experienced anything like this downturn in our global history, yet this arrogant fool is so sure of what governments are doing that in effect; there is no plan on sopping up the liquidity that they&#8217;re creating.  This will lead to runaway inflation levels.</p>
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		<title>By: Charting 1973, 1982 and 2009 &#124; The Big Picture</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/market-rally-1974-or-1982/comment-page-1/#comment-168090</link>
		<dc:creator>Charting 1973, 1982 and 2009 &#124; The Big Picture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=25582#comment-168090</guid>
		<description>[...] Earlier this morning, I asked whether the Market Rally was more reminscent of 1974 or 1982. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Earlier this morning, I asked whether the Market Rally was more reminscent of 1974 or 1982. [...]</p>
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