US vs Europe: Who is the Welfare State?
Today is May Day, and while International Workers’ Day (Labour Day in the UK), means little in the USA, its a big holiday in Europe. Banks and markets are closed on the continent, (England celebrates on Monday).
Speaking with Mike Panzner this morning (his clients are mostly Europeans) made me think about this: Which region is the true Socialist state?
-Europe has cradle to grave health care plans, generous unemployment benefits, and free or subsidized college costs.
-The US gives away public assets (oil, gas, mineral rights) for pennies on the dollar, has huge subsidies and tax breaks, and bails out reckless speculators.
It turns out that both regions are welfare states — only in Europe, the natural population (i.e., people) is the recipient, while in the US, the corporate population is the beneficiary.
Food for thought . . .
May 1st, 2009 at 10:32 am
Well, in the U.S.of course anything that we design must only benefit the top 1% of the population. If we’re going to really have socialism per se, I’d like some bene’s too. Therefore, Europe’s form of it looks far better and more reasonable to me.
However, I would take real capitalism any day if the U.S. was really serious about. Sadly, we are not. We’re only serious about it if it always benefits the elite class and that they never lose. Ever.
May 1st, 2009 at 10:36 am
In Europe, the show a preference for making the lives of average people a little better.
In The USA, Uncle Stupid appears to show a preference for trick down socialism.
The GWB bunch borrowed money with the intention of sticking someone else with the bill, and transferred that wealth towards people who had the connections to exploit it.
The Obama bunch borrowed money with the intention of ignoring how to pay it off, transferred the wealth to people who went broke under the GWB socialist plan, and just made cash transfers, as opposed to the old way of making them look like they at least did something to earn it.
May 1st, 2009 at 10:39 am
Lots of things seem to cause the Akismet spam filters to kick in:
-3 links in comment
-The words “Socialist” or “Communist” are problematic
-Any of the classic spam product words — Porn, gambling, pharmaceuticals . . .
May 1st, 2009 at 10:42 am
Food for thought: every American consulate in Europe has a long list of people waiting to relocate to the US; not many of the American “natural population” dreams of emigrating to Europe, damn idiots.
May 1st, 2009 at 10:53 am
@Oleg: Really? Do you have actual data to back up your claims? I’ve heard from many Americans who love living in Europe and would never come back.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:02 am
Some young healthy ambitious Europeans are envious of the lifestyle. If they retain their European citizenship, why not got o the U.S., they can always go back to Europe to have an operation or treat an illness.
I, for one, am delighted to get my French citizenship because I married a French woman. I still live in the U.S.
I have never seen a “fundraiser” for a child with cancer in France.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:10 am
It ate my comment, too. Hope this doesn’t end up being a duplicate.
____________
BR: You have defined the difference between fascist and socialist forms of government.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:13 am
The funny thing is that President Obama is regularly accused of being in the pocket of major corporations on this blog. He is also regularly accused of wanting to turn America into a “European style socialist state” by the right wing Republican Party. I’ve even seen people refer to the President as a “communist Fascist,” which is patently ridiculous since the two terms are mutually exclusive!
The fact that extremists on all sides are aiming at Obama means that he’s doing things exactly right.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:14 am
You won’t admit it, but you didn’t even realize it was May Day until I brought it up as the second, thread-killing commenter on your first post this morning: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/no-nfp-today/#comments
And even though Barry Wuzzy wuvs me, Ritholtz is wise enough to never acknowledge the presence of The Great CNBC Sucks on his blog.
Now to the topic: The difference between the US and Europe is that Europe has primarily left-wing socialism, because we killed most of their right-wing socialists in the 1940s. In the US, we have both left-wing and right-wing socialists. If Obama does not squander US resources on public welfare, Republicans would squander those same resources on their friends in oil, nuclear, coal, defense, and Wall Street.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:15 am
The real question is not US versus Europe but what should the government be doing with the tax money?
May 1st, 2009 at 11:17 am
BR: Maybe lack of ability to post a comment is why your hits are going down.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:17 am
You won’t admit it, Ritholtz, but you didn’t even realize it was May Day until I brought it up as the second, thread-killing commenter on your first post this morning: http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/05/no-nfp-today/#comments
And even though Barry Wuzzy wuvs me, Ritholtz is wise enough to never acknowledge the presence of The Great CNBC Sucks on his blog.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:18 am
mannwich-
although I love Europe- could wander around there for years- however- I am pretty sure more people are trying to get here- not there- we have many, many , many faults- but one thing we do have is creativity-
I was amused when I was in Poland that the driver of the bus I was traveling on was listening to American pop music- it is truly Pax Americana- we are everywhere-
except- did not see too much American influence in UlaanBaatar- but I’m sure it will get there
May 1st, 2009 at 11:19 am
For the tird try:
BR: you have defined the difference between fas*ist and so*ialist forms of government
May 1st, 2009 at 11:20 am
@ahab: I agree for the most part but a part of me wouldn’t mind the option of trying it out for myself for a while. Why not? No kids or obligations keeping us here.
My point is if we’re going to have real capitalism here in the U.S., fine. Let’s have it. What we have now is a bastardized version of it, so anyone not in the favored class gets the shaft as everything is gamed for the benefit of the top 1% who can never lose. That’s a road to ruin, IMO.
If we’re going to have high taxes here in the U.S. (and we already do), I would just prefer that those funds be spent on things that I actually support. Bailing out criminal bankers and a rotten, corrupt banking system that brought us to the brink of the apocalypse is not how I would prefer those funds be spent.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:20 am
“tird” try.
Meant to write third, should have written turd.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:27 am
Speaking of Europe more particularly of my fellows frog citizens,
Unlike the popular US belief, America is still quite popular here. I ain’t going into details but I notice American propaganda is wide spread.
Let’s not forget that Europe has been a battle ground for America fighting the communists and the ties run deep. Am I saying socialist parties are controlled by America, yes, and so is Sarkozy.
To be honest, in this environment France is benefiting from having had strong unions who protected manufacturing. On another stand, I just came back from a walk in town where May Day socialist were walking home from their 1 st of May labor day parade, these people were affluent, very well dressed representative of the easy life government employees have.
Although unemployment has been rising at about the same rate than in the US, people here have not yet been disturbed by our current great financial implosion. The social benefits are outstanding, top notch medical care is always sought and basically free.
Trouble is still on the program, the cost of socialism is at every level of the economy and it does depend on a fairly well performing economy. France, being a country of officially 65 millions with a 27.6 active population and about half who are employed by some form or another of public entity or from public grants that leaves about 14 millions producing for 65 million. Lay-off have so far been in the producing sector at the rate of 80K per month.
This pyramid is hardly sustainable and with an ever flowing flux of illegal Muslim migrants who gets on the state dole as soon as they step foot, if the coffers run dry or, if the population realizes that their assets held in banks are insolvent things could get out of hands really quick and nasty. French banks heavily invested in wall street and are far from being in good shape.
Having a good medical coverage is natural as well as well constructed retirement benefits. Socialism for the arts and theaters is as useful and perversive as giving it to the wall street bankers.
All in all, French people have a far better life and lifestyle (no GM food crap) have a much longer lifespan. Five weeks of paid vacation and 12 national holidays… a 35 hours work week (an aberration) and a nice country. You won’t get filthy rich, even if you can but, you will live a comfortable life much more so than in the US. With such, I should be off for tropical Africa, if I can take it, for a few years.
African countries are in debt but, not that much in debt, when she has huge mineral resources. I am going…
May 1st, 2009 at 11:29 am
The biggest consequence – and least understood – of the Bernanke – Paulson – Geithner – Summers approach to the “crisis” is redistribution of income from future taxpayers, corporations and savers to speculators, wealthy individuals and the financial industry.
Politically, it is also the most dangerous aspect.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:29 am
Ah the irony: Pouring vast resources into winning a cold war against an uber-socialist regime that represented our only existential threat, justifying the effort by the threat the regime posed to freedom and capitalism (before that was a dirty word), and in fact, relying on the creative impulse and effort afforded by capitalism to secure the victory, only to attempt two decades later to resurrect the ideology of the regime that threatened our survival, and was proved not viable in the breech, through the vehicle of a Federal Reserve gone wild, all on the justification that a fraudulent financial system grown up after the victory can’t be allowed to fail….
You couldn’t make this up if you tried.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:29 am
So far team Obama has done nothing to readily address or materially change so The Triumph of the Banking Oligarchs continues at huge taxpayer expense.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:30 am
My post went away, too, let me see if I can remember it (third try):
Ah the irony: Pouring vast resources into winning a cold war against an uber-socialist regime that represented our only existential threat, justifying the effort by the threat the regime posed to freedom and capitalism (before that was a dirty word), and in fact, relying on the creative impulse and effort afforded by capitalism to secure the victory, only to attempt two decades later to resurrect the ideology of the regime that threatened our survival, and was proved not viable in the breech, through the vehicle of a Federal Reserve gone wild, all on the justification that a fraudulent financial system grown up after the victory can’t be allowed to fail….
You couldn’t make this up if you tried.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:30 am
Like I said…everyone wants to go to the U.S. so long as they know they have free health care back home. Like a twenty yearold that leaves home knowing that mommy is only a phone call away.
People trying to escape desperate third world conditions will do anything or go anywhere (just ask a phillipino working like an indentured servant on a cargo ship)
May 1st, 2009 at 11:34 am
mannwich Says-
“If we’re going to have high taxes here in the U.S. (and we already do), I would just prefer that those funds be spent on things that I actually support. Bailing out criminal bankers and a rotten, corrupt banking system that brought us to the brink of the apocalypse is not how I would prefer those funds be spent”
agreed- do believe in the “common man”- no sympathy for those filled with “upwardly mobile angst” however- hand wringing about creature comforts- what happened to the 3 BR ramblers with one bathroom- tweren’t so bad
May 1st, 2009 at 11:34 am
I don’t think you can make a blanket statement about US versus Europe. I like New York and San Francisco over London and Vienna, but certainly Paris and Amsterdam over LA and Cleveland. Small towns in Europe tend to be better to visit than small towns in the US. European food is consistently better and their women consistently thinner, but we have Monday Night Football and buttered popcorn in our movie theaters.
Never mind. Europe gets the edge.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:36 am
Europe (Western to be exact) only enjoys the fruit on socialism on the backs of low-skilled workers. While the USA exported its manufacturing industries overseas, the Euros imported low-wage workers to provide a comfortable ride for the natives.
There are endless numbers of resources that all point to Europe’s demographic future. In reality, it is nothing more than a mirror image than that which is happening here in Calif. When the tipping point comes, the game is all over. 1st world amenities cannot be sustained on 3rd world economies. Socialism always fails. Always.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:38 am
socialism for all vs. socialism for the wealthy?
May 1st, 2009 at 11:38 am
@CNBC Sucks: So it seems to me it would be best to marry a European (preferably French) to have the option of going back and forth at will. Too late for me but that would seem to be the ideal. You’d also have the safety net of always having health care without going bankrupt if some health calamity should hit.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:43 am
If we cut the corp subsidies, tax breaks, etc., we would be able to pay for national healthcare and also give corporations a big break as well. Think what this might do to us competitively. Companies would have to take care of their employees as the employees would have mobility. The inverse is that many unproductive/unhappy employees would leave for more satisfying work.
Probably too good a concept to gain traction, tho.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:45 am
“but we have Monday Night Football and buttered popcorn in our movie theaters.”
Amen- but here is some other Americanism’s- surfing, skateboarding, running/jogging, snowboarding, Elvis impersonators-
when I was out in Santa Monica a couple years back I saw a guy on a motorized skateboard- on the street- with traffic- crazy shit there-
we are just a dynamic country
May 1st, 2009 at 11:47 am
“Food for thought: every American consulate in Europe has a long list of people waiting to relocate to the US; not many of the American “natural population” dreams of emigrating to Europe, damn idiots.”
Yeah right. I just got my visa today that will take me up to the point when I can become an EU citizen. As an American, this is nearly impossible to do (without marrying someone). When Europeans want to emigrate, the US is hardly at the top of the list — most want to go to Australia or Canada, or just move around in the EU (i.e. Spain).
Your average American is a sucker, constantly repeating to themselves that they live in the “Greatest Country in the World” as they lose their job, are priced out of the middle class, and see their taxes rise so that some creep from Goldman Sachs can get another mansion in Palm Beach. Have fun with that.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:49 am
Here’s a question to all: why the hell are you so bugged out? If you’re smart enough to understand what is occurring, why not be part of the winning team? Why continue to moan & groan when you can be making a killing?
A hallmark of intelligence is to alter one’s course based on new evidence. Smart market traders depended on transparency and fairly efficient markets in which to (hopefully, correctly) place bets. Those days are over. Why yearn for the past?
Why not adapt & get in on the new action? After all, many readers of financial blogs were way ahead of the curve in terms of understanding the events over the last 18 months. Why quit now? Anyone that has any situational awareness knows perfectly well what is going to occur.
There is going to be huge money made being part of the print (used to be tax) & spend axis. Doesn’t matter what it is, health, energy, transportation, etc. Just look for the winning angle; market winners used to have superior technology, mfg, marketing, etc. Future indicators will be based on insider connections, favored political pressure groups, campaign support, etc.
A smart investor can profit in any market. Just drop the emotion and focus on secular trends.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:52 am
RBinIslington Says:
have fun in Europe- you’ll be back- this truly is the place where anyone can make it- and make it big- talk to Arnold or Barrack- no dream too big- this country loves a winner
May 1st, 2009 at 11:53 am
@centiare: Because I think for many of us (I know it’s shocking), life isn’t simply about making money. Many of us have made money off of this crap but I think there’s a lingering feeling that this is all not going to end well. It would be easier to look at it on those terms though. I’ll give you that much.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:55 am
“communist Fascist” are two sides of the same coin of tyranny
…sorry for my three-post earlier….I thought they all got lost.
May 1st, 2009 at 11:55 am
@RB: I’ll bet that Oleg is Eastern European. I may be wrong about that but that’s a whole different ballgame over there. Folks in Eastern Europe have had it bad for so long and love the dynamism and upside that the U.S. represents.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:04 pm
sorry ifthis point has already been made, but this, supposed, dichotomy is BS.
the reality of the comparo is found zoologically.
this is comparing factory-farm raised Pigs to their, barely, still wild Boar cousins that been fattened/doped up by the Feeder trying to domesticate them. and, yes, one cannot ignore that the Feeder is heavily into beastality..
and other perversions: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html
May 1st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
@Jeff – I don’t think it’s too late. Since you are a trader, make really good trades and you can always enhance your portability. Money talks. Look at Jim Rogers.
@ahab – That’s why I called it an edge for Europe, not a slam dunk. (You are also very perceptive to point out “running/jogging”, i.e., the relative lack of public recreational parks in Europe.) America could still be the greatest country on Earth, because of our dynamism. As a registered Republican, I say that if we got rid of the present-day iteration of the Republican Party, we would stand a much better chance.
Probably the main point I should make is that all Americans should get the chance to see the rest of the world so that they are not constantly the victim of misinformation about life outside the US by the likes of Joe “The Hair” Kernen.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:06 pm
hey all- got turned onto this site from usphoenix last night- this pretty much says it all about the dynamics of this country- all different acts- all great- especially like tracks 1, 2 & 13
http://www.mtvmusic.com/playlists/mtvm/?contentId=1609015
May 1st, 2009 at 12:22 pm
@kcowan: what tax dollars? have you seen some of the preliminary tax numbers for 2008?
May 1st, 2009 at 12:28 pm
@Mannwich – “lingering feeling that this is all not going to end well”
Whatever advantage evolution provided to those who are sentimental has long been surpassed. Probably in the ancient mists of time, allegiance & faith conferred certain advantages in terms of food, safety, support, etc. Yet, those personality characteristics are now obsolete; I would guess that at a certain level it would be recognized as a disability.
In the long run, nothing ends well – we’re all dead. So the key is to maximize one’s enjoyment in the here & now. If it’s “winning”, whether in golf, investing or cards, the high is achieved by victory. If you’re gonna play, play to win.
Playing to win means embracing a secular approach to the facts as they exist. The facts are obvious to each and everyone who stays abreast of the news. If 99% of the population are focused on NASCAR & AI, then it’s easy pickens’ for the 1% who are thinking about how to rip-off the dopes.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:37 pm
centiare Says:
“In the long run, nothing ends well – we’re all dead. So the key is to maximize one’s enjoyment in the here & now.”
could not agree more- does not mean however that someone should not be interested in the long run future of this country
@ hoffer-
seriously disturbing link
May 1st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
@centaire: I hear you, but quite frankly, I think that one of the big reasons we are where we are today is because of this “who cares, how can I make money off it” relativist predator, fuck my neighbor and community and country mentality. Call it a weakness but that’s not how I choose to operate.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:51 pm
One thing that surprises me about the conversation comparing the US and Europe is that Europe has benefited hugely from us effectively subsidizing their defense budgets. I don’t know why there isn’t a much bigger call for us to cut our defense budget in half, pull troops out of most of the countries where they are stationed, etc. It shouldn’t be that hard for us to save $3 Trillion in defense spending over the next 10 years.
That would buy a lot of cheese.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:54 pm
“Whatever advantage evolution provided to those who are sentimental has long been surpassed. ”
Do you have any good links to back this up, centiare? This is by far my biggest liability. I would love to minimize it, because sentimentality does get in the way.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Wall Street was basically in the counterfeiting business, injecting fake money (credit/debt) into the system. Sham loans were treated as equivalent to cash, thanks to bogus AAA ratings. It really boils down to counterfeiting. (Egads, I no longer believe that artificially low interest rates are the problem. Lawlessness was/is the problem.)
As the massive amount of counterfeit/debt gets written off, we could’ve:
(a) done nothing (and gone into a deflationary spiral for a few years)
(b) replaced it in situ by giving money to the counterfeiters in amounts equal to what they counterfeited
(c) replaced it by given it to everyone else in equal amounts per capita.
The US and even Europe did (b), whereas I would’ve preferred (c). (Actually, it can still be implemented. There are more writeoffs to come.) But, I haven’t noticed this idea being talked about anywhere, except the few times we readers kick the idea around here.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:57 pm
@centiare: I would also add that capitalism without trust in that system by the people that they’re not being preyed upon and ripped off all the time by their neighbor won’t last very long without imploding. I think we’re seeing the fruits of this labor blossoming right now. Brown shoots, if you will.
May 1st, 2009 at 12:57 pm
I no longer believe that artificially low interest rates are the [main] problem.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:01 pm
centiare,
I’ll demur to your stated POV.
simply, you act as if “The Bell tolls for thee”, alone.
and, these two points: ” The facts are obvious to each and everyone who stays abreast of the news. If 99% of the population are focused on NASCAR & AI ” would, naturally, be mutually exclusive.
ahab,
that, creation of chimeras, was a big part of the real argument that was turned into the ‘made for TV’ “stem-cell debate”..
those things are broadly used to culture cross-species variants of pathogens–they fall out of the bio-warfare labs.
yet, with “All the News that’s Fit to Print”, most peep think that Bio-Engineering is something New to the 1990’s..guess again.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Chrysler creditors poised to contest reorganization plan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8028427.stm
Although we’re becoming accustomed to trillions (Q: Who should be on the US Trillion Dollar note?) a few billion is still meaningful dough to some people. Obama’s fightin’ words might not have helped ensure a smooth, quick, and controlled Chapter 11.
@centiare:
High-level decisionmaking has always been detached from sentimentality, public health policy being a prime and topical example. Sometimes public health concerns should trump the “sentimental” desire of central African peoples to hand-wash the bodies of victims of Ebola, for example.
We aren’t done with sentimental notions by a longshot, however, and I think it’s an arrogance to think that the march of time has made us “post-human.” Try out your post-human argument on your spouse/significant other or the next person you ask out for a date and see how far you get. Gifts of flowers, cards, gold, and diamonds still have great survival value in human cultures.
Now it’s possible to go through the motions with those rituals to get a desired result, but people who do that without reference to corresponding internal emotional states are still termed “sociopathic.”
May 1st, 2009 at 1:10 pm
Transor Z said: “Now it’s possible to go through the motions with those rituals to get a desired result, but people who do that without reference to corresponding internal emotional states are still termed “sociopathic.”
Hhhmmm, this may sound a tad harsh, but this sounds like an apt description of much of Wall Street, corporate culture (especially the higher ranks) and political class today. And we wonder why we are where we are today?
May 1st, 2009 at 1:15 pm
Mannwich,
There was a far-far left “documentary” called The Corporation a few years ago with that exact premise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation
I don’t hold with that but I think there’s some food for thought.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Centiare-
You are promoting nihilism. It is corrosive. Are you mastering your desires or are they enslaving you?
I find it stunning and disheartening that there ha been so few calls to virtue in the midst of this disgusting period of US history. What an utterly hollow population. Worshipping Wotan masquerading as Mammon.
I recommend that those who subscribe to the callow ’self’ interest of the wanna-be Randians to go fully Gaussian, please do. It will make it easier for us to id the sociopaths and game you. Buy yourselves t-shirts that say ‘I shrugged’. Pajeros.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
@Transor: My wife and I rented it a few years ago. I’m not totally in the camp (yet) but I thought it made some pretty interesting points with some pretty good evidence of this phenomenon. Definitely food for thought.
May 1st, 2009 at 1:22 pm
All of the commenters on this blog are sentimental fools; otherwise, we wouldn’t give enough of a damn about others to post what we are thinking. No one is moving markets here talking their book. You might use a comment to test an idea here and there, but commenting on TBP generally serves no profitable purpose.
On that note…
May 1st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Transor, Mannwich,
see: http://books.google.com/books?q=Sociopaths+Bureaucracy+Business&spell=1&oi=spell
the academic approach to that underlying premise has been well developed, it’s an attribute that has been noticed for many decades..
May 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Does anyone else get the sense that these markets are going to continue to rise until the results of the “stress tests” are revealed, at which point it will be sell the news?
May 1st, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Q: Who should be on the US Trillion Dollar note?
A: Reagan, of course!
Now where did I put all those Woodrow’s?
All about the Benjamins?, pffft!
May 1st, 2009 at 2:03 pm
It is better for *workers* in Europe, indeed.
So if you prefer to be a salaried worker, the benefits, vacation and job security is much better there. However, if you would like to open your own business it is much more difficult in Europe because of the taxes and labor laws. This explains why some Americans would like to move to Europe and Europeans here.
However, it is wrong to think that these differences are a matter of policy. They are a matter of mentality. Think American and French revolutions. People in America and France want different things and they get what they want.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Mannwich Says:
May 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Does anyone else get the sense that these markets are going to continue to rise until the results of the “stress tests” are revealed, at which point it will be sell the news?<<<<<<
That could well be the trigger for at least some kind of decent correction if not a sustained downturn. Someday it’s gotta wake up, look around, and say, “What the…? How did we get to this level?”
By the way, I echo your thoughts and feelings in this thread. I’m not willing to sell my soul as centiare apparently is.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:20 pm
How about halfway between Europe and the US…I think it’s called Canada. At any rate great post Barry, I think it’s an important question to ask. At the moment America is looking like the least libertarian nation in the G7.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:29 pm
@tagyoureit: “Let’s throw a few Reagans at the problem.” Yep — IMO it’s got legs!
@Mark: Good to see that the academics are on it. Now they just need some grant money to go into the field, shoot some of their subjects with tranquilizer darts and tag ‘em with transponders so we can keep tabs on the suckers!
May 1st, 2009 at 2:31 pm
@ Mannwich:
>Does anyone else get the sense that these markets are going to continue to rise until the results of the “stress tests” are revealed, at which point it will be sell the news?
I agree with you that the news will be sold. Soft volume as the the rally has gone on and it seems that any sharp break above 875 to 880 gets quashed pretty quickly. The setup seems to be for a fall.
Incidentally, I’m wondering what could the stress tests possibly reveal that we don’t know already. That Citibank and BAC are shit up a creek? We already know that… I’m guessing any news out of the news release will either be non-news or bad news.
HCF
May 1st, 2009 at 2:34 pm
@HCF: Or fake/phony/fraudulent “news”.
May 1st, 2009 at 2:36 pm
http://www.ngo.grida.no/wwfap/polarbears/where/tagging.html
May 1st, 2009 at 2:40 pm
@Mannwich:
I think the Treasury should hire The Onion to write it’s headlines for them =)
HCF
May 1st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Europe has the leg up…Energy
Europe mass transportation system outwork any US system in place.
Workers are in better heath are more and better producers. You don’t have the Damocles’ sword hanging over your head about getting sick.
Europe can survive much better an petroleum typhoon, smaller cars, smaller distances, magnificent railroads. There are few reasons to have a car, sure its nice—Here you can do without, you walk it is better for your health anyway.
I know you guys will trash this statement: Europe among other has chance to come ahead from this crisis to the detriment of the US. Of course other players too can come ahead—including America.
I also think that America has less of a chance of coming out on top. You jut can’t overlook America’s addiction to cheap energy.
Yes, discoveries in new energy will help, the medical field will keep you alive cloning you new parts prepped for you in rabbits, mouses or pigs. Eat the rest on your plate, zero waste cycle and with his skin on you back.
Beyond any shadow of doubt sustainable development is on tomorrow’s agenda, America has huge short comings in that fields, suburbia America is a nose sore. How will it happen..we already see it at work. I hear thunder.
If the crisis gets going full throttle, you will see major changes and body parts (businesses) flying around, in tomorrows world, doesn’t Europe has a natural behavior to turn towards Moscow. Will Foreign investors buy America’s crown jewel industries for cheap at inflated prices. If America has nothing to offer, how will be America ?
Now, I also don’t think Europe has what it takes to make it happen, crisis bring people together, misery loves company, Europe could found itself the willingness. America has a contingency plan for that case and has worked on it for quite a while doesn’t mean it will work.
May 1st, 2009 at 3:09 pm
I’ve lived in Miami, NYC, San Francisco, Paris, London and Tokyo, I can assure you the US (and I am American) is not the pinnacle of habitation that some of its citizens claim. The US could take a lot of pointers from Europeans and, dare I say it, from France (HEALTHCARE). It is shockingly good. Full stop. I’ve had MRIs for 3 euros scheduled the next morning after a 5:30 pm appointment. I spent 3 weeks in the neonatal ward of a hospital with my preemie son and the bill came to 750 euros (on average $40k in the states). I’ve been referred to specialists with ease, had unreal prenatal care that was entirely free (to every woman in the country I might add) and an emergency room visit where we were seen in less than five minutes. America your healthcare pales in comparison. That said, the salaried worker in Europe is a problem. The desire of a huge majority of young French people to want to work for the government is sad, and the time that it takes to start a business in Paris is maddening. London is better, but the tube is the slowest thing on Earth! They need express trains like NYC.
Both sides have their pros and cons. What I find sad is that we stand around saying “we are so much better” when there is so much we could learn from each other and improve together. Teamwork, people.
May 1st, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Pretty sure that up until this administration, there wasn’t much concern for anyone’s welfare (well being) in the government within my lifetime. Obama seems to be the first one in ages to actually care about people other than those within his social class. Clinton tried, but failed, Carter tried, but failed. Obama is bound and determined not to fail.
And we will HAVE to grow up and become a socially democratic society. There is simply no other way for this country to survive. People are no longer going to continue to work for companies that can’t afford to provide them healthcare, and almost no company these days is going to be able to afford it much longer. If we don’t implement national health care in some form, we’re pretty much screwed. It’s the equivalent now to FDR’s social security.
May 1st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
In the end Donna- someone always pays- and if no-one will work for a company that doesn’t provide healthcare- then for that company’s very survival it will need to provide healthcare- is that a fair statement? And if this country cannot survive without providing healthcare- then what does that say about the people who live in this country- that without government sponsored healthcare they will reject the continuation of the United Sates-
I reject your arguments.
May 1st, 2009 at 4:32 pm
“socialism for all vs. socialism for the wealthy?”
It’s annoying to argue against an economic system that doesn’t have a name, let alone defenders willing to own up to defending it. Paulson and Summers never argued for robbing the many to give to the few, they would deny ever having done so. The refrain is that they’re just ‘helping get credit into the hands of American consumers and business’. And who are you going to believe, them or your lying eyes?
So on Fridays I’m calling it “crypto-feudalism”, and Obama is my crypto-king, with Timothy Geithner his crypto-vassal that organizes the patronage of the crypto-barons of 100 North Tryon Street and 399 Park Avenue. There’s no kneeling before the royalty under crypto-feudalism – do they not bleed like any worker? do they not enjoy cheap beer and barbeque like any over-leveraged plebian? – but they will bend you over and take what’s theirs when they get the opportunity.
May 1st, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Clusterstock ran an thread today about U.S. government spending now matching that of Canada as % of GDP. Amazing stuff. I can really feel a sense of “disillusionment” out here in John Q. Publicville….our government and business “leaders” (term used loosely) have generally failed us the last several years.
I know a lot of people who have lived in America and Europe….I don’t get the sense they have a preference one way or another. There are pro’s and con’s to both places….just like within states of this Union. There are some spots in Europe that are absolutely fantastic….would move in a heartbeat if I could find the right opportunity.
May 1st, 2009 at 4:47 pm
abab,
I do not beleive heath care is a make or brake case for the US however, heath care goes to the deepest of medical ethics and if a country cannot provide the science of medecine such a country should not be viewed as worth while.
If the medical science with have proven itself back when the founding fathers were around, equal access to medicine would have been put in there. It is at the basis of democracy–heath of its citizens..
You greedy fucks who don’t want to create a national heath care in America wont have the choice to share. This crisis has the potential of unraveling known quantities, if the little guys ( the producer) interests are not put forward. Say good bye to America altogether.
The case for virtual economies has failed and is hard dying.
Personally I am exited at the forthcoming chaos, I know America has a very tough road to equilibrium, almost an impossible task you would have to compress America as suburbia will prove to be a bust. I don’t think Americans understand the road ahead.
May 1st, 2009 at 5:38 pm
Well I sorta skimmed over these 72 posts and I failed to see the 800 pound gorilla. Our beloved military and their mighty, world bestriding budget. They come before all else, own you, hold you in contempt, and, they see you when you’re sleeping so be good for goodness sake. Have a nice weekend and dont try and leave the country.
May 1st, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“It turns out that both regions are welfare states — only in Europe, the natural population (i.e., people) is the recipient, while in the US, the corporate population is the beneficiary.”
BR hits it out of the park!
May 1st, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Froglip Says:
“I do not beleive heath care is a make or brake case for the US”
Froglip Says:
“You greedy fucks who don’t want to create a national heath care in America wont have the choice to share. This crisis has the potential of unraveling known quantities, if the little guys ( the producer) interests are not put forward. Say good bye to America altogether.”
so which is it- it won’t break the US or it will? Those in this country w/ private health care are not “greedy fucks”, they are looking out for themselves and their families-
when I was going to college, I paid into a Blue Cross/Blue Shield fund offered by the college so I would have health coverage- wasn’t much really but I was paying rent and tuition as well- but if I chose not to get health insurance- I would have been “one of the uninsured” often spoken of- of course- self imposed.
May 1st, 2009 at 7:25 pm
>> The desire of a huge majority of young French people to want to work for the government is sad
Is it “really” so sad? A couple of times in the past, I applied to work for the USG. One of the selling points for me is: the “profits” of whatever good I do on the job inure to the average shmo. That’s in contrast to the (many) private companies I’ve worked for, where for the most part I worked for some jerks and their rich benefactors.
May 1st, 2009 at 7:27 pm
In other words, the desire to work for the government may be borne out of some sense of community spirit.
May 1st, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Does this mean we can stop saying “capitalism” failed?
May 1st, 2009 at 11:35 pm
@catman — hey, I mentioned the military budget up there. I don’t quite agree with your spin on it, but I do find it rather remarkable that military spending isn’t front/center in terms of “what the heck are we doing”"?
@wunsacon, I get your point; in fact, I thought about trying to join the CIA after 9/11, but not really seriously I guess. I do think that a lot of folks want govt. jobs for the a) security, b) pension/benefits, and c) perceived “cushiness” of those jobs. But I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush.
I look at the implications, for example, of where I’d be today if I had gone to work in a govt. job (almost doesn’t matter which — fed, state, local), and what my pension would be, vs. what I’m looking at from my 201k. Of course, it does appear that the govt. pensions are doomed, but that is another story……….
May 2nd, 2009 at 11:13 am
Oleg Says:
Food for thought: every American consulate in Europe has a long list of people waiting to relocate to the US; not many of the American “natural population” dreams of emigrating to Europe, damn idiots.
The International Organization for Migration says:
“there are more than 200 million migrants around the world today. Europe hosted the largest number of immigrants, with 70.6 million people in 2005, the latest year for which figures are available. North America, with over 45.1 million immigrants, is second, followed by Asia, which hosts nearly 25.3 million.”
I didn’t think you had any facts to back up your opinion.
May 2nd, 2009 at 12:08 pm
Most of the people that don’t like Europe have never lived there.
May 5th, 2009 at 12:34 am
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June 7th, 2009 at 5:28 pm
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