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	<title>Comments on: Housing Bust to Hit Manhattan, Hamptons</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: Ned</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183465</link>
		<dc:creator>Ned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183465</guid>
		<description>Your note on Manhattan real estate contains the answer to your question on real estate values-condo volumes are down 71%.  I have lived in California for 40 years, and have witnessed (and profited from) multiple housing busts during that period.  As volume dries up, the mantra is always the same-“the market may go down 30-40%, but our area is special, and should hold up.  Maybe it will drop 15-20%.”   When volume dries up it is the precursor to a waterfall in prices. 
 
Is waterfront property different?  Maybe.  Manhattan property?  Possibly.  Residential property?  No way.  In the last cycle here (early 90’s) my new neighbor (the real estate speculator) who top ticked the market in 1990 told me our private, small beach community would never go down in price.  I bought his house from him for 55% of what he paid for it five years later.  Better still, I sold it for almost a three bagger in 2004. 
 
When our markets have corrected, there has been two key indicators.  The first has been the affordability index.  When that gets to par (and sometimes better), housing is at or near the bottom.  With the financial services industry getting whacked, this has to have an impact on Manhattan prices.
 
The second is rental rates.  When rental rates finally start breaking, we have typically been close to the bottom.  Rental rates always lag, and sometimes get a boost in the early part of the correction as people delay buying and/or are forced to move from owner occupied properties into cheaper rentals. 
 
This cycle may be different (I hate that cliché) because personally I feel we are no longer in a downtrend for interest rates.  The long downtrend saved a lot of us, however, given the recent debasing of the US dollar and the potential for serious damage to treasury yields over the next X number of years, my gut tells me that this real estate downturn may last much longer than those of the past, and could even be generational (which will be good for my kids).
 
Cheers</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your note on Manhattan real estate contains the answer to your question on real estate values-condo volumes are down 71%.  I have lived in California for 40 years, and have witnessed (and profited from) multiple housing busts during that period.  As volume dries up, the mantra is always the same-“the market may go down 30-40%, but our area is special, and should hold up.  Maybe it will drop 15-20%.”   When volume dries up it is the precursor to a waterfall in prices. </p>
<p>Is waterfront property different?  Maybe.  Manhattan property?  Possibly.  Residential property?  No way.  In the last cycle here (early 90’s) my new neighbor (the real estate speculator) who top ticked the market in 1990 told me our private, small beach community would never go down in price.  I bought his house from him for 55% of what he paid for it five years later.  Better still, I sold it for almost a three bagger in 2004. </p>
<p>When our markets have corrected, there has been two key indicators.  The first has been the affordability index.  When that gets to par (and sometimes better), housing is at or near the bottom.  With the financial services industry getting whacked, this has to have an impact on Manhattan prices.</p>
<p>The second is rental rates.  When rental rates finally start breaking, we have typically been close to the bottom.  Rental rates always lag, and sometimes get a boost in the early part of the correction as people delay buying and/or are forced to move from owner occupied properties into cheaper rentals. </p>
<p>This cycle may be different (I hate that cliché) because personally I feel we are no longer in a downtrend for interest rates.  The long downtrend saved a lot of us, however, given the recent debasing of the US dollar and the potential for serious damage to treasury yields over the next X number of years, my gut tells me that this real estate downturn may last much longer than those of the past, and could even be generational (which will be good for my kids).</p>
<p>Cheers</p>
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		<title>By: wunsacon</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183428</link>
		<dc:creator>wunsacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183428</guid>
		<description>Mr. C. Cheese, purely ad hominem remarks violate Barry&#039;s TOS.  (And yahoo-variety mud-slinging will bore/annoy this crowd.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. C. Cheese, purely ad hominem remarks violate Barry&#8217;s TOS.  (And yahoo-variety mud-slinging will bore/annoy this crowd.)</p>
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		<title>By: cvienne</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183196</link>
		<dc:creator>cvienne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183196</guid>
		<description>So if Obama wants to revive the housing market, he&#039;d better stop trying to cap Wall St. pay cause those are the only guys who can play in that market...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if Obama wants to revive the housing market, he&#8217;d better stop trying to cap Wall St. pay cause those are the only guys who can play in that market&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: manhattanguy</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183195</link>
		<dc:creator>manhattanguy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:16:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183195</guid>
		<description>Looking forward to it. Can&#039;t wait for some price chops in UWS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking forward to it. Can&#8217;t wait for some price chops in UWS.</p>
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		<title>By: Mannwich</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183193</link>
		<dc:creator>Mannwich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183193</guid>
		<description>The high end real estate market has yet to face the music yet (in many respects).  I posted this over the weekend but there are several (I mean, SEVERAL) 7 figure homes languishing on the market on Lake Minnetonka, which is as prime a real estate that you&#039;ll see here in Minny.  Many make no bones about the fact that they&#039;re bank-owned (and some brand new, haven&#039;t even been lived in, I don&#039;t think).  Until this market corrects, this mess is far from over and the correction in housing prices at the lower end are not done going down because once the higher end corrects, the lower end prices will go down again as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The high end real estate market has yet to face the music yet (in many respects).  I posted this over the weekend but there are several (I mean, SEVERAL) 7 figure homes languishing on the market on Lake Minnetonka, which is as prime a real estate that you&#8217;ll see here in Minny.  Many make no bones about the fact that they&#8217;re bank-owned (and some brand new, haven&#8217;t even been lived in, I don&#8217;t think).  Until this market corrects, this mess is far from over and the correction in housing prices at the lower end are not done going down because once the higher end corrects, the lower end prices will go down again as well.</p>
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		<title>By: leftback</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/06/housing-bust-to-hit-manhattan-hamptons/comment-page-1/#comment-183188</link>
		<dc:creator>leftback</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=29089#comment-183188</guid>
		<description>Bring it on .... Bonfire of the Vanities, part deux!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bring it on &#8230;. Bonfire of the Vanities, part deux!!</p>
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