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	<title>Comments on: And Then There Was Two . . .</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: Greg0658</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194743</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg0658</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194743</guid>
		<description>danm and Curmudgeon  @ 9:31am .. the magic was being primarily the sole survivor of WW2 and a Better Homes and Gardens advertising campaign that created demand in many industries .. now I&#039;m afraid that dream life has been outsourced to thinly and is extracting its price .. nomadic needs are returning too (imo)

and for you day traders - I woke to Cspan and Defense Sec Gates replay from Chicago - some systems are being nixed (attempting) if you haven&#039;t heard .. it was a good speech (from paper) (not a techy teleprompter)  .. and why bring this line up .. Guns or Butter? .. I think we all know our place is Guns 1st .. and his thoughts on $s spent world over and us (USA) .. and future threats and weapons systems needed to thwart .. you all know I&#039;ve been saying how about tryin BUTTER</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>danm and Curmudgeon  @ 9:31am .. the magic was being primarily the sole survivor of WW2 and a Better Homes and Gardens advertising campaign that created demand in many industries .. now I&#8217;m afraid that dream life has been outsourced to thinly and is extracting its price .. nomadic needs are returning too (imo)</p>
<p>and for you day traders &#8211; I woke to Cspan and Defense Sec Gates replay from Chicago &#8211; some systems are being nixed (attempting) if you haven&#8217;t heard .. it was a good speech (from paper) (not a techy teleprompter)  .. and why bring this line up .. Guns or Butter? .. I think we all know our place is Guns 1st .. and his thoughts on $s spent world over and us (USA) .. and future threats and weapons systems needed to thwart .. you all know I&#8217;ve been saying how about tryin BUTTER</p>
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		<title>By: Paul S</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194739</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 14:06:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194739</guid>
		<description>Amazing thing about JPMorgan is they bought all that &quot;crap&quot; (WaMu etc...) that was supposedly &quot;toxic&quot;.
Well, with Fed at 0% it must be kind of hard to lose money as a bank.  Still, this is amazing.  Infuriating but amazing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amazing thing about JPMorgan is they bought all that &#8220;crap&#8221; (WaMu etc&#8230;) that was supposedly &#8220;toxic&#8221;.<br />
Well, with Fed at 0% it must be kind of hard to lose money as a bank.  Still, this is amazing.  Infuriating but amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg0658</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194730</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg0658</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194730</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll be my namesake (vigilant and watchful) 1 more time .. and remind some other vigilant book talkers the President is but one office in the great American experiment of Business 1st .. you all know that .. so this S&#039; tops your F&#039; regime .. now bury this thread in trader twitter this dayout

back to the meat .. the insurance bill as I&#039;ve heard it supposed will allow moving out of an employer and carry a family over to a new job or over till a new job is found .. that is bad news for companies in a world that a business education is not really learned anymore in a school, but on the job vocational training .. the modern technologies of the 21st century are not in textbooks any longer and the TBTF corporations know that the insurance hold on its slaves is a just that</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll be my namesake (vigilant and watchful) 1 more time .. and remind some other vigilant book talkers the President is but one office in the great American experiment of Business 1st .. you all know that .. so this S&#8217; tops your F&#8217; regime .. now bury this thread in trader twitter this dayout</p>
<p>back to the meat .. the insurance bill as I&#8217;ve heard it supposed will allow moving out of an employer and carry a family over to a new job or over till a new job is found .. that is bad news for companies in a world that a business education is not really learned anymore in a school, but on the job vocational training .. the modern technologies of the 21st century are not in textbooks any longer and the TBTF corporations know that the insurance hold on its slaves is a just that</p>
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		<title>By: The Curmudgeon</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194721</link>
		<dc:creator>The Curmudgeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:31:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194721</guid>
		<description>I think Malthus was correct, but  not in the way that most who ascribe to his views believe.  (Malthus was the guy who said that mankind was always doomed to live a life of subsistence because population grows geometrically while food output grows arithmetically).

He was correct that the vast majority would always lead lives of barely-scraping-by subsistence because that is how people are programmed to expect life.  It is in their genes to expect that life is a struggle to survive, so even when they find they have the ability to live with excess over subsistence, they squander it on trinkets and baubles and expanding waist lines so that they can return to their preferred bondage.   

They are collusively encouraged to live beyond their means by virtually every cultural influence to which they are exposed.  Thrift is shunned because the economy&#039;s continued viability is predicated on continued growth, even when growth is not necessary for meeting the needs of the individuals making up the economy.  Thus they remain in bondage.

The only way out of bondage is to learn to live simply and humbly, controlling the passions by a reasoned view of understanding and controlling them.

There is much more to this, but I have to go.  Let me just say that a bit of ascetism can go a long way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Malthus was correct, but  not in the way that most who ascribe to his views believe.  (Malthus was the guy who said that mankind was always doomed to live a life of subsistence because population grows geometrically while food output grows arithmetically).</p>
<p>He was correct that the vast majority would always lead lives of barely-scraping-by subsistence because that is how people are programmed to expect life.  It is in their genes to expect that life is a struggle to survive, so even when they find they have the ability to live with excess over subsistence, they squander it on trinkets and baubles and expanding waist lines so that they can return to their preferred bondage.   </p>
<p>They are collusively encouraged to live beyond their means by virtually every cultural influence to which they are exposed.  Thrift is shunned because the economy&#8217;s continued viability is predicated on continued growth, even when growth is not necessary for meeting the needs of the individuals making up the economy.  Thus they remain in bondage.</p>
<p>The only way out of bondage is to learn to live simply and humbly, controlling the passions by a reasoned view of understanding and controlling them.</p>
<p>There is much more to this, but I have to go.  Let me just say that a bit of ascetism can go a long way.</p>
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		<title>By: chromex</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194708</link>
		<dc:creator>chromex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 13:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194708</guid>
		<description>I am puzzled as to why the Times  ( although the wording is coy) thinks the worst is over. One primary reason that GS et al are able to show a profit is that they are allowed to carry derivatives, etc and the value they &quot;think&quot; such things are , whcih, as an astonishing coincidence, always happens to equal what they paid for them, at least or, at a minimum, the value of the loansa etc., they cover. But the derivatives are there in case of defaults and there are many, many defaults yet to come. In other words the &quot;carrying&quot; value will have to be proven someday. And based on the numbers I&#039;ve seen, the issuers cannot possibly produce enough. This may haapen this year, with commercial loan defaults or it may happen in 2010. But it will happen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am puzzled as to why the Times  ( although the wording is coy) thinks the worst is over. One primary reason that GS et al are able to show a profit is that they are allowed to carry derivatives, etc and the value they &#8220;think&#8221; such things are , whcih, as an astonishing coincidence, always happens to equal what they paid for them, at least or, at a minimum, the value of the loansa etc., they cover. But the derivatives are there in case of defaults and there are many, many defaults yet to come. In other words the &#8220;carrying&#8221; value will have to be proven someday. And based on the numbers I&#8217;ve seen, the issuers cannot possibly produce enough. This may haapen this year, with commercial loan defaults or it may happen in 2010. But it will happen</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194699</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194699</guid>
		<description>This is my last post...

I used to think that everybody should live withing their mans and save but then I realized that probably more than 50% of families can&#039;t save even if they tried.

They can only afford a home farther away for their work, both work so they have to pay daycare and need a second car because of the distance and the daycare.

Many angry savers will say that they could always rearrange their lives so as to cut something.  Like rent an apartment...  The reality is that this can be done at the individual level.  If all the 50% did it they would arbitrage the savings away.

In Capitalism, the owners of capital want to increase their returns and cut costs as much as possible.  The better they are at doing this the more wealth will be concetrated as time goes on.  This is exactly what we have been seeing over the last few decades.

As the average Joe feels increasingly left out, his willingness to stick the capitalist with bad debt increases.   We are there now.  Many people had less to lose by going in debt than by not playing. 

The same wealth concentration occured during the 20s.  Something happened that managed to level the playing field for a few decades and gave birth the the American middle class.

We&#039;re at a tipping point now.  Either the rich get richer and we go into some remake of the feudal system or the wealth gets redistributed.  It there is re distribution, the savers will get diluted.

So all of us positive net worth savers who are angy with GS and the elite are essentially full of contraditions because we are part of the problem!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is my last post&#8230;</p>
<p>I used to think that everybody should live withing their mans and save but then I realized that probably more than 50% of families can&#8217;t save even if they tried.</p>
<p>They can only afford a home farther away for their work, both work so they have to pay daycare and need a second car because of the distance and the daycare.</p>
<p>Many angry savers will say that they could always rearrange their lives so as to cut something.  Like rent an apartment&#8230;  The reality is that this can be done at the individual level.  If all the 50% did it they would arbitrage the savings away.</p>
<p>In Capitalism, the owners of capital want to increase their returns and cut costs as much as possible.  The better they are at doing this the more wealth will be concetrated as time goes on.  This is exactly what we have been seeing over the last few decades.</p>
<p>As the average Joe feels increasingly left out, his willingness to stick the capitalist with bad debt increases.   We are there now.  Many people had less to lose by going in debt than by not playing. </p>
<p>The same wealth concentration occured during the 20s.  Something happened that managed to level the playing field for a few decades and gave birth the the American middle class.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re at a tipping point now.  Either the rich get richer and we go into some remake of the feudal system or the wealth gets redistributed.  It there is re distribution, the savers will get diluted.</p>
<p>So all of us positive net worth savers who are angy with GS and the elite are essentially full of contraditions because we are part of the problem!</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194691</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 12:11:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194691</guid>
		<description>Although I still believe in saving because a safety cushion is always better than none, I think we were fools to think that the system would protect all of our savings + future returns.

Why should the savers make more money than they deserve thanks to overinflated asset valuations?

Both savers and spenders can be blamed for their greed.  Spenders lived above their means now and savers were hoping to live above their means at retirement.

The reality is that most people were not saving enough and thought that the market would keep on doing the heavy lifting (other people working like slaves) for them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I still believe in saving because a safety cushion is always better than none, I think we were fools to think that the system would protect all of our savings + future returns.</p>
<p>Why should the savers make more money than they deserve thanks to overinflated asset valuations?</p>
<p>Both savers and spenders can be blamed for their greed.  Spenders lived above their means now and savers were hoping to live above their means at retirement.</p>
<p>The reality is that most people were not saving enough and thought that the market would keep on doing the heavy lifting (other people working like slaves) for them.</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194687</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:52:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194687</guid>
		<description>Silly us. We thought we were supposed to be responsible people and do the right thing. Not anymore.
-----------------
I&#039;m a saver.  A couple of years ago I was angry.  Now I understand that no matter what the rules are it does not matter.  Rules can be broken.  Change is natural.  Nature hates a void.

People have to adapt, and if the spendthrifts win they will have proved to have better luck or a better survival instinct than mine.

In the last couple of years, while playing games with my children, I realized that people are born with the inherent knowledge that luck is very important.  Kids inherently know this and we bash it out of them.  We teach them skills because we know that luck can run out.  And somewhere along the way, we manage to convince ourselves that if we are good enough, luck has nothing to do with it.  We are deluded.  Luck means a lot, skill or not.
   
That slower bug flying behind the pack, thus missing the pesticide spray survives not because it is the fittest but because it was at the right place at the right time.  That&#039;s life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Silly us. We thought we were supposed to be responsible people and do the right thing. Not anymore.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
I&#8217;m a saver.  A couple of years ago I was angry.  Now I understand that no matter what the rules are it does not matter.  Rules can be broken.  Change is natural.  Nature hates a void.</p>
<p>People have to adapt, and if the spendthrifts win they will have proved to have better luck or a better survival instinct than mine.</p>
<p>In the last couple of years, while playing games with my children, I realized that people are born with the inherent knowledge that luck is very important.  Kids inherently know this and we bash it out of them.  We teach them skills because we know that luck can run out.  And somewhere along the way, we manage to convince ourselves that if we are good enough, luck has nothing to do with it.  We are deluded.  Luck means a lot, skill or not.</p>
<p>That slower bug flying behind the pack, thus missing the pesticide spray survives not because it is the fittest but because it was at the right place at the right time.  That&#8217;s life.</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194685</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194685</guid>
		<description>For the most part, the worst of the financial crisis seems to be over. Yet other large banks, including Citigroup and Bank of America, are still struggling to return to health.
------------------
With Fed Funds at .2%, it&#039;s hard to say it is over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the most part, the worst of the financial crisis seems to be over. Yet other large banks, including Citigroup and Bank of America, are still struggling to return to health.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
With Fed Funds at .2%, it&#8217;s hard to say it is over.</p>
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		<title>By: mathman</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/and-then-there-was-two/comment-page-1/#comment-194672</link>
		<dc:creator>mathman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 10:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=32570#comment-194672</guid>
		<description>i&#039;m also pissed at being duped by the Obama promises, only to be discarded after election.  Politics won&#039;t change the broken government we now live under.  It isn&#039;t a democracy any more (since we don&#039;t use the Constitution, corruption abounds, and corporations own the people in power) and the printing of fiat money makes it look more and more like a banana republic out here:  two widely different classes of people - one with access to power and wealthy (about 5% of pop.), and everyone else, sliding into poverty - and the double-standard &quot;rule of law.&quot; 

No doubt this will end badly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;m also pissed at being duped by the Obama promises, only to be discarded after election.  Politics won&#8217;t change the broken government we now live under.  It isn&#8217;t a democracy any more (since we don&#8217;t use the Constitution, corruption abounds, and corporations own the people in power) and the printing of fiat money makes it look more and more like a banana republic out here:  two widely different classes of people &#8211; one with access to power and wealthy (about 5% of pop.), and everyone else, sliding into poverty &#8211; and the double-standard &#8220;rule of law.&#8221; </p>
<p>No doubt this will end badly.</p>
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