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	<title>Comments on: Understanding Seasonal Adjustments</title>
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		<title>By: Monday Morning Chartology-10/26/09 - Steve Cook on Disciplined Investing - InvestorsInsight.com &#124; Financial Intelligence, Advice &#38; Research / Investment Strategies &#38; Planning for Individual Investors.</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229479</link>
		<dc:creator>Monday Morning Chartology-10/26/09 - Steve Cook on Disciplined Investing - InvestorsInsight.com &#124; Financial Intelligence, Advice &#38; Research / Investment Strategies &#38; Planning for Individual Investors.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:45:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] Understanding seasonal adjustments (long but a must read):&#160;&#160;&#160; http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/&#160;&#160;&#160; Good news from the Chicago Fed (short):&#160;&#160;&#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Understanding seasonal adjustments (long but a must read):&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href="http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/&nbsp;&nbsp;&#038;nbsp" rel="nofollow">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/&nbsp;&nbsp;&#038;nbsp</a>; Good news from the Chicago Fed (short):&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: eephus102</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229473</link>
		<dc:creator>eephus102</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Barry, 

Thanks for posting this. It would be great if you wrote this in an op-ed piece somewhere in the MSM. The general public needs to know more about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry, </p>
<p>Thanks for posting this. It would be great if you wrote this in an op-ed piece somewhere in the MSM. The general public needs to know more about this.</p>
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		<title>By: photosports</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229334</link>
		<dc:creator>photosports</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 20:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229334</guid>
		<description>Only economist can love seasonal adjustments.  The fact that retail sales drop in January as compared to December is a FACT!  And you have to be an idiot not to know the reason why.  
&quot;Honey, I just got laid off, but it&#039;s ok because seasonally adjusted it doesn&#039;t count since somebody gets laid off duringthe same time most years.&quot;
Just give me the real numbers and give me an explanation.  Ah, the curse of being an accountant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only economist can love seasonal adjustments.  The fact that retail sales drop in January as compared to December is a FACT!  And you have to be an idiot not to know the reason why.<br />
&#8220;Honey, I just got laid off, but it&#8217;s ok because seasonally adjusted it doesn&#8217;t count since somebody gets laid off duringthe same time most years.&#8221;<br />
Just give me the real numbers and give me an explanation.  Ah, the curse of being an accountant.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark E Hoffer</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229255</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark E Hoffer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229255</guid>
		<description>gorobei, 

thank you, this: &quot;The problem happens when you want to predict or estimate at a higher-frequency&quot;

is what I was getting at, the introduction of Statistics/Mathematics in the service of the impossible--here, the predicting/forecasting of human behavior.

as a, different, ex. &quot;Retail-demand Forecasting&quot;--Doesn&#039;t.  It is, merely, a better Information gatherer coupled with &#039;Historical&#039;-trends understanding..

Hardly the stuff of MTBF/MTTF, and other models of the physical world.
as in http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&amp;v%3Asources=webplus&amp;query=MTBF+MTTF

this is, always, an interesting Q:
Fund A returned an average of 10% PA with a standard deviation of 10%
Fund B returned an average of 11% PA with a standard deviation of 10%

they should remind us, again, that Finance is a Quantative, not Qualitative, Act.
no knowledge, whatsoever, can be derived to lead one to an understanding of &quot;How&quot; the results were generated, esp., without the knowledge of the Portfolio constituents..

We should remember &quot;Investing is a &#039;People&#039; Game&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gorobei, </p>
<p>thank you, this: &#8220;The problem happens when you want to predict or estimate at a higher-frequency&#8221;</p>
<p>is what I was getting at, the introduction of Statistics/Mathematics in the service of the impossible&#8211;here, the predicting/forecasting of human behavior.</p>
<p>as a, different, ex. &#8220;Retail-demand Forecasting&#8221;&#8211;Doesn&#8217;t.  It is, merely, a better Information gatherer coupled with &#8216;Historical&#8217;-trends understanding..</p>
<p>Hardly the stuff of MTBF/MTTF, and other models of the physical world.<br />
as in <a href="http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&#038;v%3Asources=webplus&#038;query=MTBF+MTTF" rel="nofollow">http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&#038;v%3Asources=webplus&#038;query=MTBF+MTTF</a></p>
<p>this is, always, an interesting Q:<br />
Fund A returned an average of 10% PA with a standard deviation of 10%<br />
Fund B returned an average of 11% PA with a standard deviation of 10%</p>
<p>they should remind us, again, that Finance is a Quantative, not Qualitative, Act.<br />
no knowledge, whatsoever, can be derived to lead one to an understanding of &#8220;How&#8221; the results were generated, esp., without the knowledge of the Portfolio constituents..</p>
<p>We should remember &#8220;Investing is a &#8216;People&#8217; Game&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Los Angeles Real Estate Los Angeles Real Estate - Understanding Seasonal Adjustments &#124; The Big Picture</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229219</link>
		<dc:creator>Los Angeles Real Estate Los Angeles Real Estate - Understanding Seasonal Adjustments &#124; The Big Picture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 00:59:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229219</guid>
		<description>[...] here: Understanding Seasonal Adjustments &#124; The Big Picture   Share and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here: Understanding Seasonal Adjustments | The Big Picture   Share and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: hue</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229182</link>
		<dc:creator>hue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229182</guid>
		<description>looks like many of the retirement comments have been deleted. my apologies Barry for sidetracking your NAR discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>looks like many of the retirement comments have been deleted. my apologies Barry for sidetracking your NAR discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229179</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Why should all tax increases fall onto workers?
-------------------
Unless you want the US to become a real banana republic, you&#039;re going to have to transfer wealth from the 55+ to the young.  So somehow they have to tax this group and transfer it to the younger generation.

The reality is that 2/3 of the 55+ probably have most of their wealth in real estate which is tanking.  And that wealth is probably still not even enough to carry them through their 10-30 years of retirement.

I have a lot of trouble seeing government increasing taxes on those on &quot;fixed incomes&quot; while their assets are tanking.  Not good for reelections!

So they&#039;re going to have to find some ingeueous stealth way of transfering money without the 55+ realizing it.  That means printing money and tax credits for the young.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why should all tax increases fall onto workers?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
Unless you want the US to become a real banana republic, you&#8217;re going to have to transfer wealth from the 55+ to the young.  So somehow they have to tax this group and transfer it to the younger generation.</p>
<p>The reality is that 2/3 of the 55+ probably have most of their wealth in real estate which is tanking.  And that wealth is probably still not even enough to carry them through their 10-30 years of retirement.</p>
<p>I have a lot of trouble seeing government increasing taxes on those on &#8220;fixed incomes&#8221; while their assets are tanking.  Not good for reelections!</p>
<p>So they&#8217;re going to have to find some ingeueous stealth way of transfering money without the 55+ realizing it.  That means printing money and tax credits for the young.</p>
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		<title>By: danm</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229177</link>
		<dc:creator>danm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229177</guid>
		<description>retirement is an interesting research area. What does a society do with its old people if there is no retirement?
-----------
Remember the word poorhouses?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>retirement is an interesting research area. What does a society do with its old people if there is no retirement?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
Remember the word poorhouses?</p>
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		<title>By: hue</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229176</link>
		<dc:creator>hue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229176</guid>
		<description>gorobei, what you described is velocity of money. money is not wealth. that is problem with our fiat currency.   the cow is wealth, and only a limited amount of people can benefit from its consumption. unless the gov&#039;t is jesus with bread and fish. 

by saying wealth is a zero sum game, i&#039;m not strictly saying that. i&#039;m saying that the entire planet can&#039;t out consume it&#039;s wealth and resources, can&#039;t deficit spend like G20 gov&#039;ts. 

willid3,  we&#039;re back to socialism if we try to distribute the wealth. but we all know that socialism doesn&#039;t work. and looks like capitalism doesn&#039;t work either. not sure what does work.  i think when Bruce brought up the older folks, i was thinking &quot;Big Picture&quot; regarding retirement.  of course,  companies in the past generation realized that pensions will break them, that&#039;s why we have 401(k)s.  i think even if  we have Nasdaq 10,000 and Dow 30,000, it still will not be enough to sustain the masses in retirement. 

MEH,  regarding currency lent into existence. the Chinese are willing to do that, it&#039;s call vendor financing. the Chinese are willing to lend to us and debase their on currency to keep their masses employed and export products.  the US is willing to export our jobs to them by debasing the dollar. it&#039;s a beautiful world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gorobei, what you described is velocity of money. money is not wealth. that is problem with our fiat currency.   the cow is wealth, and only a limited amount of people can benefit from its consumption. unless the gov&#8217;t is jesus with bread and fish. </p>
<p>by saying wealth is a zero sum game, i&#8217;m not strictly saying that. i&#8217;m saying that the entire planet can&#8217;t out consume it&#8217;s wealth and resources, can&#8217;t deficit spend like G20 gov&#8217;ts. </p>
<p>willid3,  we&#8217;re back to socialism if we try to distribute the wealth. but we all know that socialism doesn&#8217;t work. and looks like capitalism doesn&#8217;t work either. not sure what does work.  i think when Bruce brought up the older folks, i was thinking &#8220;Big Picture&#8221; regarding retirement.  of course,  companies in the past generation realized that pensions will break them, that&#8217;s why we have 401(k)s.  i think even if  we have Nasdaq 10,000 and Dow 30,000, it still will not be enough to sustain the masses in retirement. </p>
<p>MEH,  regarding currency lent into existence. the Chinese are willing to do that, it&#8217;s call vendor financing. the Chinese are willing to lend to us and debase their on currency to keep their masses employed and export products.  the US is willing to export our jobs to them by debasing the dollar. it&#8217;s a beautiful world.</p>
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		<title>By: gorobei</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/10/understanding-seasonal-adjustments/comment-page-1/#comment-229171</link>
		<dc:creator>gorobei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 20:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=42062#comment-229171</guid>
		<description>Mark E Hoffer,

Y-o-Y  (e.g. Sept 09 vs Sept 08, or 2009 vs 2008) numbers are clean and unbiased.  The problem happens when you want to predict or estimate at a higher-frequency (e.g. monthly rather than yearly.)  You have three basic choices:

1.  Smooth the data with a MA.  This looks pretty but is not math.
2. Just look at Sept 07, 08, 09, etc.  You get a number, but sigma is so high that no one cares about it.
3. Seasonally adjust, explain your reasoning, and hope you did it right.

Sampling theory (and statistics in general) is a nasty thing.  Here&#039;s a typical puzzle:

Fund A returned an average of 10% PA with a standard deviation of 10%
Fund B returned an average of 11% PA with a standard deviation of 10%

How many years of results do you need to see in order to bet that fund B is generating superior results and is not just lucky?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark E Hoffer,</p>
<p>Y-o-Y  (e.g. Sept 09 vs Sept 08, or 2009 vs 2008) numbers are clean and unbiased.  The problem happens when you want to predict or estimate at a higher-frequency (e.g. monthly rather than yearly.)  You have three basic choices:</p>
<p>1.  Smooth the data with a MA.  This looks pretty but is not math.<br />
2. Just look at Sept 07, 08, 09, etc.  You get a number, but sigma is so high that no one cares about it.<br />
3. Seasonally adjust, explain your reasoning, and hope you did it right.</p>
<p>Sampling theory (and statistics in general) is a nasty thing.  Here&#8217;s a typical puzzle:</p>
<p>Fund A returned an average of 10% PA with a standard deviation of 10%<br />
Fund B returned an average of 11% PA with a standard deviation of 10%</p>
<p>How many years of results do you need to see in order to bet that fund B is generating superior results and is not just lucky?</p>
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