NFP/Unemployment Charts Get Fugly

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By Barry Ritholtz - November 6th, 2009, 11:08AM

These employment situation reports, courtesyof Jake at Econompic, are simply fugly:

Average Weekly Hours

click for ginormous charts
weekly_hours worked 110609

The hours worked are horrible, even as the Labor pool gets smaller.

Labor Participation Rate

laborparti110609

Ratio between Hours Worked and Labor Participation Rate hits an all time low:
hoursciv110609

67 Responses to “NFP/Unemployment Charts Get Fugly”

  1. Mannwich Says:

    Great news! ZIRP 4-eva = markets go up ad infinitum…..Buy, Buy, BUY!

    Until the dollar is worth exactly zero.

  2. call me ahab Says:

    manny-

    damn dude- you got it!

    glad to see you are on board

    and these charts-

    wonderful-

    jobs are over-rated-

    everyone should be self employed- whether it’s hustling the streets or jacking a car-

    all tax free of course

  3. wunsacon Says:

    It could be worse.

  4. call me ahab Says:

    tax free- just like Hank Paulson’s sale of his GS shares-

    doing his country’s duty and taking a government job at the Treasury allowed him to avoid paying taxes on the GS stock because he was forced to sell it-

    conflict of interest and all

  5. ashpelham2 Says:

    Once again, I’ll provide the Common man’s view of the data: There are more people being laid off, but not as fast of a rate. The people left working are being driven like a damn slave. They are working less hours because they won’t get paid for it, so they are humping like a maniac while they are there.

    I’d say that pretty much sums up the labor report for October.

  6. bergsten Says:

    I read somewhere (and, unlike MEH, I’m too lazy to look it up and cite the reference) that prehistoric man spent less than 20 hours a week “working” (hunting, fishing — you know, the things we do for sport).

    So from that perspective, “down to 33 hours” looks like we’re moving in the right direction!

  7. rootless_cosmopolitan Says:

    Mannwich,

    “Until the dollar is worth exactly zero.”

    I don’t see any reason to assume that the dollar would go to Zero. Why would that happen? I think to believe the dollar will go to Zero under the current circumstances is extremely irrational.

    rc

  8. call me ahab Says:

    “So from that perspective, “down to 33 hours” looks like we’re moving in the right direction!’

    good observation Bergsten- not necessarily a negative as long as people can make a living and support themselves w/ fewer hours

  9. call me ahab Says:

    rc-

    well other currencies have gone to ZERO- not unheard of- but pretty sure manny is saying that for dramatic effect-

    let’s just day debased a whole bunch- to make it more scientific

  10. Mannwich Says:

    @rc: I was being hyperbolic. Is there an emoticon for that?

  11. Mannwich Says:

    ….or ironic. Or both.

  12. rootless_cosmopolitan Says:

    Mannwich,

    OK. I didn’t get it. Difficult to know, since some people seem to seriously believe this.

    rc

  13. call me ahab Says:

    last post @ 11:53- should read-

    -let’s just “SAY” debased a whole bunch-

    damn- today has been brutal- typos and grammatical snafus abound

  14. Mark E Hoffer Says:

    Yes, truly amazing things can be created when you convince a population to Fund –401(k)/”Pension Plans”–their own displacement –Outsourcing.
    http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Outsourcing+by+the+Fortune+500
    add in a little Incentive by the ‘elected’ “Representatives”..
    here, an ex., in reverse “…President Obama is attempting to follow through on many of the campaign promises he made, including reducing or eliminating tax credits for companies that move jobs offshore. The intent is clearly to maintain more jobs in the US. Spokesmen for Indian outsourcing companies are naturally crying foul, calling it protectionism, and predicting it will prolong the current recession. This is something of an overstatement, since eliminating tax credits is a long way from erecting tariffs and other trade barriers, which would be protectionism. Not giving tax credits is quite different from imposing tariffs…”
    http://www.glgroup.com/News/President-Obamas-Impact-on-Offshoring-34859.html
    http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Ross+Perot+giant+sucking+sound

    some things are, too, predictable..

  15. ssny2000 Says:

    Hey Barry,

    Great site, Unemployment is actually far worse. I dont’ believe anyone has addressed this and would love to hear your thoughts
    http://absolutecapital.blogspot.com/2009/11/what-is-being-missed-by-unemployment.html

  16. franklin411 Says:

    Perhaps Barry should rename this blog “The Rearview Mirror.”

  17. Brendan Says:

    Fundamental shift(s)?

    I’d be curious to know how much of this is directly related to the recession versus how much is related to changing demographics and lifestyles. I’m sure there are a good number out there who retired a few years earlier than expected and just plan to live out their golden years a little more humbly than previously expected. We were expecting to see the labor participation rate drop as the boomers retired (and then lived longer), and we may have just gotten more of it all at once due to the recession.

    On top of that, I’m seeing people in their late 20’s and early 30’s who are starting families that are trading disposable income for staying home with the kids (or at least working fewer hours), and it’s not always mom anymore (I read in Newsweek, if memory serves me, that women will surpass men in employment in the next year or so). Of course the recession is the big factor, but I wonder how much these numbers will spring back. I suspect we hit a peak and shouldn’t expect to see numbers return to their previous highs. I’m guessing the new “natural” level is quite a bit lower, which means these charts may not tell the whole story.

    About 2005 I remember looking around and seeing a whole lotta’ money being made by people doing a whole lotta’ nothing. No offense to the finance people who are able to make important decisions on how to allocate money, but there just seemed to be way too many people making a living by moving relatively small sums of money around for people, either in the stock market or the RE market. This seems like work for the sake of work. There’s no real value added here. This isn’t about investing in certain companies or sectors over others; it’s just about gambling (often with other people’s money). There’s really no reason why we can’t have the same amount of wealth with fewer “working” hours if you cut this fat. Based on that, how much of this is just the fat finally being cut?

    …meanwhile I sit on this website while charging toward my 40+ hours per week that I “work.”

  18. How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    Oh Barry,

    This is going to put me in your good books for a year. I might even get away with posting on creationism after this. :mrgreen:

    Have I found some primo infoporn for you. Just seeing this myself gave me the chills. This is so cool. This even captures hurricane Katrina in the unemployment stats. Check this out:

    http://www.mitacstrends.com/

  19. bsneath Says:

    How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    That is outstanding infoporn. One of the best I have seen to date.

  20. Mannwich Says:

    @f411: “Rearview”? Really? I think we are in the “new normal”. Maybe Barry should rename his blog “The New Normal”. I like the sound of that.

  21. How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    @bsneath,

    Yes, really good. It proves the statement:

    I know infoporn when I see it :)

  22. gordo365 Says:

    rc – from recent Fortune magazine article – increase in supply of dollars16x since 1971. Change in unit value of currency down 81% since then.

    Allow me to put on my propeller hat for a moment — say it goes down another 81% in next 20 or 30 or 40 years. 0.19 x 0.19 = .o36.

    So if 60 some odd years – dollar goes down to 3.6% of it’s 1971 value.

    Is that close enough to ZERO to call it ZERO?

    Gordo

  23. torrie-amos Says:

    wow, i watched that chartporn about twenty times, detroit had one positive year of employment the whole decade………….you can see how low interest rates caused a housing boom in southern florida and several other areas back in 2003…………the northeast didn’t start adding till o4 and exploded in 05-08 and died abruptly……….kind of sad…………i even did one where all i did was watch the numbers tick not the bubbles, canada added jobs quickly and staid flat for approximately 4 years and did not get pinched till mid 08

  24. StickWithANose » Friday Chart Porn: Beneath the Unemployment Numbers Says:

    [...] 1. The Big Picture: NFP / Unemployment Charts Get Fugly [...]

  25. cvienne Says:

    @HTCMSI

    Great graphic… Take away? Move to Montana and you NEVER have to worry about being hired or fired…

  26. bsneath Says:

    Update on the Goldman Sachs/Warren Buffett/Fannie Mae sleeze deal:

    Goldman/Buffett/Fannie Tax Deal Inked a Month Ago

    http://www.zerohedge.com/article/goldmanbuffettfannie-tax-deal-inked-month-ago

  27. Lugnut Says:

    My brother lives in Bozeman, got laid off a little while back. No dice yet.

    You do have to worry about the winters there though. Ooo-fa.

  28. Mark E Hoffer Says:

    HTCMSI,

    nice link~ makes it, substantially, easier to point out the embedded Context of the QOTD:

    Economics is a subject profoundly conducive to cliche, resonant with boredom. On few topics is an American audience so practiced in turning off its ears and minds. And none can say that the response is ill advised. —John Kenneth Galbraith

    we’d do well to note that it’s JMK’s variant of ‘Economics’, in question, that divorces the Micro-, from the Macro-..

    with that, as He said~, it’s good news that “the American audience” can tune out that which is, prac·ti·ca·bly, Impossible..

    good thing http://classroom.mises.org/ can be ‘tuned-in’ .. it’s all about Human Action, afterall..
    http://mises.org/humanaction/theindex.asp
    http://mises.org/literature.aspx?action=author&Id=280

  29. wnsrfr Says:

    gordo365,

    Thing is, if you divide a grain of sand by .o36 it isn’t a big deal, but if you were to successfully divide a grain of sand by zero, Alan Greenspan’s head would explode.

  30. madman130 Says:

    Rober Reich came out and said stop the health care nonsense and focus on economy and jobs.
    Looks like he’s been reading this blog? Does he post as well?

    I don’t think Obama will listen. People who wear ideology in their sleeves, you just can’t help them. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

  31. bsneath Says:

    People who wear ideology in their sleeves, you just can’t help them.

    Bingo. What is ironic is that all Obama needs to do in order to be successful is be the person who campaign for President instead of being the left wing idealogue that he is today.

    We should have elected his speech writer as President. We would be much better off.

    Obama needs to let go of his ultra-liberal staff and surround himself with more moderate and rational advisors. JMHO.

  32. techy Says:

    what wrong with dollar going down?? except for those holding cash in USD.

    most people in this country are net debtors(>70%) they dont care if USD going down and bring jobs back to this country….

    right now it is painful to be a saver and not participating in the wall street casino…..seeing your cash shrinking is not a pretty sight.

  33. gordo365 Says:

    wnsrfr – lets notdo that – might ripe a hope in the fabric of the universe… :)

  34. ashpelham2 Says:

    The real issue is how Obama has tried to ram so much change at us and down our throats in year one. It’s amazing the amount of work a President can get done in his first and second year, then begin politicking for re-election, get re-elected, and sit and do nothing for 4 years.

    2 years of actual substantive effort to cause reform. 2 years spent campaigning, 4 years doing nothing.

    Sounds like Bush #43. Except he spent his second 2 years in office, term 1, causing needless war, and then the last 4 trying to solve the same crossword puzzle. Wonder if he read “Hints from Heloise”?

  35. Marcus Aurelius Says:

    bsneath:

    Wearing a little ideology on your sleeve, yourself, no?

    I don’t think the O admin is all that liberal. I cite the bank bail-outs, the wars, extraordinary rendition, extension of tax cuts, and telecom immunity as examples. As for opinions on healthcare and jobs, that probably depends on which side of the fence you’re on. There, but for the grace of god, go you and yours.

  36. techy Says:

    Obama’s biggest negatives IMO:

    1. inability to reform wall street
    2. inability to stop lobbyist excess influence on government.

    but he is not the king of this country….he barely has any power(40% of the religious-white population want him to fail even if it means failure of their own country).
    and of course he needs to win elections…..for which he also needs lots of money.

    so unless you fix the fundamental issues…..we can simply keep doing rah-rah while the termite keeps working on the structure.

    1. campaign finance reform
    2. take religion out of politics

    and then you will see some nice people run for office….right now 90% of the politicians are not in it to do better…..they just want to keep their job by hook or by crook….and while they are at it if possible they would like their families and friends to make boat load of money.

    in a country where 40% of the population care only about two issues based on religion……we dont have any right to expect anything from our politicians….be glad we are not in a papal rule.

  37. call me ahab Says:

    “I don’t think the O admin is all that liberal.”

    good point Marcus- many if not all of the actions carried out by this admin (outside of health care) would have most likely been done under presidency- McCain or Hillary

  38. call me ahab Says:

    “be glad we are not in a papal rule.’

    last i checked the USA is primarily protestant so Papal rule wouldn’t fly under any circumstances-

    and there are about a million different protestant religions-

    and many other non-Christian religions-

    so i wouldn’t worry about some kind of religious state-

    you would need a very homogeneous society w/ primarily one religion for that to occur-

    such as Iran

  39. Mannwich Says:

    I would say that O’s policies and leadership haven’t been bold ENOUGH. I wouldn’t call them “liberal” or “conservative” per se. A better word would be “wrong”.

    But what do I know. I’m not in the elite Ivy League school class of smarties that got us into this mess. I know nothing.

  40. How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    wnsrfr – lets notdo that – might ripe a hope in the fabric of the universe

    Don’t worry I know a good quantum mechanic who can fix it :)

    2 years of actual substantive effort to cause reform. 2 years spent campaigning, 4 years doing nothing.

    I’m getting the feeling he will spend his second term(if he gets it, I’m guessing he’ll squeak through) truly putting through some legacies knowing he can no longer be fired. I don’t think Bush cared to create a legacy or maybe the choke chain was just too restrictive.

    Obama is different IMO. I think he wants to make an impact and leave a mark. I think that is why he is touching base and building relationships around the world. In term two he’ll probably want to call in those markers for a push for something

  41. bsneath Says:

    That $760 billion piece of big government crap was liberal.

    Moving on to the quote of the day: from Bloomberg

    Reed Says ‘I’m Sorry’ for Role in Creating Citigroup

    “I would compartmentalize the industry for the same reason you compartmentalize ships,” Reed said in the interview in his office on Park Avenue in New York. “If you have a leak, the leak doesn’t spread and sink the whole vessel. So generally speaking you’d have consumer banking separate from trading bonds and equity.”

  42. call me ahab Says:

    “term two”

    wow- common man- that is truly a brave forecast

  43. ashpelham2 Says:

    Could it be that one country without an official religion or belief system (or too many) is worse off than a nation with one, predominant religion to which all political decisions are based? I’m no religious idealogue, but I wonder if the excess of belief systems effectively wash each other’s influence out so as to have a nation that is not “under God” or anyone else? Can we continue to prosper without a belief system recognized by all, with the exception of our “morals”. And we know how those morals work…..

  44. rob Says:

    What is up with the upgrades today? Every freaking stock I look at has an upgrade to it. Anyone have a place/way of finding out how many total upgrades/downgrades/etc took place today?

  45. How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    @ahab

    I think he is the planner type. I think he is planning to set up for term two like he planned for his election. Yes, some things have to break his way, but he seems the type that sets a lot of things in motion to create forward momentum building to a crescendo. Kinda like writing a symphony.

    That’s just a hunch but I do like to ‘read’ people and that is what I’m getting from him. Of course I could be exactly wrong. He could just be in it for the cash but I don’t think the ideologue is dead in him yet

  46. techy Says:

    replace my papal rule —for whatever applies to “evangelical christians”. lets call it as “ReligiousKing”

    dont be so sure about we not getting the religiousKing…..80% of people in this country are christians…

    even if they belong to different denominations….they can still be fooled to beleive that the most imporatant issue in the world is goverment legislation to stop Ab0rti0n at any cost….and to stop gays.

    i am guessing that atleast 65% of the people in this country go to church, which means they are willing to listen to all the religious dogma that gets promoted in those circles.

    fear for the day when 55% of the people in this country believe that we need laws only based on religious beliefs.

    ******be glad that only 30-40% of the people are religious nuts.****

    i am guessing that atleast 45% are white-religious leaning people…..(they also have a preference for skin color and the hair style etc… :)

  47. rootless_cosmopolitan Says:

    gordo365,

    What is meant with “unit value” of the dollar? Are you talking inflation? Why is it relevant whether today’s dollar is only worth a fifths of the dollar in the 70s? It’s just a unit to measure the value of the goods in an economy and the specific number and unit on the price label are quite arbitrary. I am not talking inflation. I am talking the price of the dollar measured in currency of other countries. I consider the exchange rate of the dollar more important for the relative strength of the US-economy compared to other countries. I suppose inflation will come back eventually. I don’t care whether there is inflation, as long as it isn’t to high and nominal income can keep up with it (actually, I also don’t care whether the US-economy is stronger or weaker than the one of other countries). For the coming years I see a deflationary tendency in US as the more probable scenario, though.

    rc

  48. scharfy Says:

    I shudder to think what might have been, thankyou, thankyou, thankyou for “Cash for Clunkers”. These numbers might have been really bad, otherwise.

    I’m gonna go with the 650,000 jobs created or saved by this administration.

    Anyways, listen Congress, I know you guys have some campaigning to do and stuff, so thanks. Good work. A few pet project Bills, a blank check to the Banks for a cool trillion, and a homeowners tax credit. I know y’all mean well- happy trails. See you at the recovery party!

  49. call me ahab Says:

    but ashpelham-

    this country was founded on “freedom of religion”-

    there is even a relatively new called Scientology invented by the science fiction writer- L. Ron Hubbard-

    we have a very creative country :-)

    and to think i pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster in the Sky-

    but- it’s my right- right?

  50. techy Says:

    i would go out on a limb and say that Obama is not getting term two….unless of course the republicans cant get their act together and they field sarah palin or they fight among themselves.

    as i have said above….45% of the people are against “non-complete religious-non white” person.

    democrats majority is just that…..if they really had the majority in senate they would have finished the health care with the public option(or universal healthcare)….but i think they have less than 50 senators who are not scared of their conservative constituents.

  51. call me ahab Says:

    “and to stop gays.”

    stop them from doing what? lol

    techy- dude- never happen- no religions leader- all silliness-

    sure some folks go to church- but who cares- most are secular folks- they go out of tradition-

    trust me– most of those folks don’t believe the literal translation of the bible- they just sit there- probably wondering about the football game coming on later or maybe lunch

  52. scharfy Says:

    @common man

    Ideologue? That ship sailed for Obama some time ago, like 2002. He’s a opportunist that will sail wherever the winds of power are blowing. I used to think he was like Carter all high and mighty, but it seems as though the hallmark of his admin, will NOT be sweeping reform, but rather the glaring void between what i say and what i do. Bush, you have been warned – Obama is hot on your heels for worst president ever- though the horses are just rounding turn one!!

  53. torrie-amos Says:

    common man,

    I see where you are coming from, and it has alot of merit. The only problem I see is, Hate Motivates, and he imho probably won on the “Lobbyists r the Problem, and doing the same thing, expecting different results rhetoric”………I spent about 400 hours campaigning for him since dec. of 06………….agree with your observation on relationships…………the massive amount of debt placed on tax payers, along with zero reform for wall street, and the still incetuous relationship of lobbyists……….the campaign promise was, “Change We Can Believe In”………….that is a classic speech call too arms, a certain brand………….no one believes in the change of more debt on more debt, or that government owned companies and ones who were bailed out, should be receiving huge paychecks……..or that if they wanted too they could pass reform as quick as they did tarp and stimulus………….the call to arms worked, they voted, and then there assignment was too?????? watch me while I watch the congress and senate act like idiots, bickering divorcing parents which we are all sick of……..he’s got lot of splaining to do

  54. CNBC Sucks Says:

    bsneath wrote: “That $760 billion piece of big government crap was liberal.”

    Wrong.

    The true liberals in Europe vehemently opposed the Keynesian stimulus spending agenda of the Obama administration. The Europeans, as “liberal” as they are, are very touchy when it comes to anything that risks inflation, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE LIBERAL. This is why the ECB fights the Fed tooth and nail everytime the Americans want to turn the USD into toilet paper, and call for everybody else to do the same to their currencies. European policies endeavor to look out for the common man, and the reason is that continent has witnessed enough mass human suffering and indignities over the last three millennia that a momentary focus on the collective good — at least until the next wave of atrocities — is in order. We, on this continent, have not suffered so much, so we are decidedly a right-of-center nation, always worshipping at the foot of will to power. I do not see “liberal” reforms in this country until we experience decades of the horrific Europe of the early 20th Century.

    As a registered Republican, I say, go ahead, call the Obama administration and the Democrats “stupid”, or “watered-down”, or whatever, but not “liberal”. These people’s remedy for an overbloated 3/4-trillion-dollar annual defense bill is to balance that with a bloated 3/4-trillion-dollar stimulus package, at a time when the nation edges closer to insolvency. You can bash Obama all you want now, but someday I assure you, you will wish we once had some real liberals to run this country.

  55. madman130 Says:

    CNBC,

    You mean classic liberal or social democrat?

    Liberals in Europe are mostly Libertarian in American context.

  56. How the Common Man Sees It Says:

    @torrie

    I hear ya. I don’t think he’ll go after the establishment. Maybe he’ll do something for the kids. He sure loves kids.

  57. madman130 Says:

    I posted it earlier.

    NY23 = second term.

    That’s how he gets it.

  58. CNBC Sucks Says:

    madman — You posed a terrific clarification question, then followed it up with a mind-boggling assertion!!!

    In the context of my comment, I mean Europeans are “social democrats”, if you want to use the term.

    However, Europeans are hardly “Libertarian in American context”. Libertarians in America are “classic liberals”, or perhaps neo-classical liberals.

    Whatever the nuanced definition you choose, it is time we stop associating stupid government spending with liberalism, no less than we need to stop associating Republicans with small government. In American politics, the words “stupid” or “greedy” or “cowardly” or “corrupt” or “asinine” will always be more accurate then either “conservative” or “liberal”.

  59. techy Says:

    ahab..

    or anyone else who does not think that “white religious pople”(45% of population) care about any other issue than “white person – pro life – anti gay” then you are lying to yourself.

    come to my south…the louisiana…the alabama…the missisipi…georgia…texas…and so on ….heck even maine seems to be more religious leaning than we think.

    in this country to win an election….you have to be a christian…..better make it protestant…..
    and if you want to run on republican brand….better be “pro life” and anti gay….and yes its better if you are white male.

    these are the facts on the ground…..everything else is side show done by the politicians and lobbyist taking advantage of the divided voters.

  60. madman130 Says:

    In American politics, the words “stupid” or “greedy” or “cowardly” or “corrupt” or “asinine” will always be more accurate then either “conservative” or “liberal”.

    Love it!

  61. torrie-amos Says:

    @common man, my fear is that in the room where they all kick back and smoke stinky cegars, the things they discuss are very bad, and what is happening now is in fact the very best they can do, meaning this path was chosen a year before obama took office, and he is putting on his best face and grinding through like us all, at times you want too see him show some anger and strength and outrage, rather than an always even hand, of course every year that ticks by demographics work in his favor, and fifty year old white politicians look follish for the most part, the guy from south carolina did not know what dithering was, isn’t he a lawyer, lol

  62. call me ahab Says:

    “in this country to win an election….you have to be a christian…..better make it protestant…..’

    duh-

    and would you expect a Hindu to be elected in Poland?

    my guess- whoever is elected there is Catholic-

    and what of the Coptic Christians in Egypt- how many of them are in power?

    it’s just a numbers game

  63. techy Says:

    ahab…

    read the whole paragraph….and you will get the picture why this country politicis is F**ed up.

    *****
    in this country to win an election….you have to be a christian…..better make it protestant…..
    and if you want to run on republican brand….better be “pro life” and anti gay….and yes its better if you are white male.

  64. techy Says:

    In American politics, the words “stupid” or “greedy” or “cowardly” or “corrupt” or “asinine” will always be more accurate then either “conservative” or “liberal”.

    that nails it perfectly…

  65. Mannwich Says:

    Until I see the GOP come up with a reasonably-sane candidate to lead its party, then I think O wins it in ‘12 by default. And, no, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich and Tim Pawlenty don’t count.

  66. DiggidyDan Says:

    In American politics, the words “stupid” or “greedy” or “cowardly” or “corrupt” or “asinine” will always be more accurate then either “conservative” or “liberal”.

    The Great One. . . FTW! That is the best political commentary i’ve seen in 3 years. In my view, government is just accounting for the stupidity of man, but then again, i’m a misanthropic pariah.

    BTW, CNBCS, you should get some of that BYU/NM Soccer girl fight up on the site.

  67. The Gold Standard » Quick comments on US October NFP report Says:

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