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	<title>Comments on: Understatement of the Year: &#8220;Recovery Hampered by Unemployment&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/</link>
	<description>Macro Perspective on the Capital Markets, Economy, Geopolitics, Technology, and Digital Media</description>
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		<title>By: TakBak04</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-234003</link>
		<dc:creator>TakBak04</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 02:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-234003</guid>
		<description>@DeDude Says:
November 11th, 2009 at 5:25 pm

Japans problem was that they listened to those idiots in Chicago. If they had taxed the rich to pay for the government spending they would have been fine. Their problem is that they do not have a consumer culture, they have a huge population of older people with a saver culture. 

---------------

Interesting comment about Japan.  Thanks... because your view is interesting compared to what others ae saying out there about Japan&#039;s &quot;Big Problem.&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DeDude Says:<br />
November 11th, 2009 at 5:25 pm</p>
<p>Japans problem was that they listened to those idiots in Chicago. If they had taxed the rich to pay for the government spending they would have been fine. Their problem is that they do not have a consumer culture, they have a huge population of older people with a saver culture. </p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>Interesting comment about Japan.  Thanks&#8230; because your view is interesting compared to what others ae saying out there about Japan&#8217;s &#8220;Big Problem.&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: DeDude</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233953</link>
		<dc:creator>DeDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233953</guid>
		<description>Japans problem was that they listened to those idiots in Chicago.  If they had taxed the rich to pay for the government spending they would have been fine.  Their problem is that they do not have a consumer culture, they have a huge population of older people with a saver culture.  They cannot really get growth in private consumption to surplant the lack of growth in exports, until all those old folks are dead.  So they have to grow on increased government consumption for some time.  The economy does not care if the consumption is private endulgence on getting bigger houses and luxury cars etc. or it is better infrastructure, education, energy distribution systems etc.  It all creates GDP growth equally well.  It is only the selfindulgent American for whom it is a catastrophe if economic growth is used on fighting pollution, helping poor people or creating a nice park - instead of on giving him another stupid useless toy to parade in front of his brother in law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Japans problem was that they listened to those idiots in Chicago.  If they had taxed the rich to pay for the government spending they would have been fine.  Their problem is that they do not have a consumer culture, they have a huge population of older people with a saver culture.  They cannot really get growth in private consumption to surplant the lack of growth in exports, until all those old folks are dead.  So they have to grow on increased government consumption for some time.  The economy does not care if the consumption is private endulgence on getting bigger houses and luxury cars etc. or it is better infrastructure, education, energy distribution systems etc.  It all creates GDP growth equally well.  It is only the selfindulgent American for whom it is a catastrophe if economic growth is used on fighting pollution, helping poor people or creating a nice park &#8211; instead of on giving him another stupid useless toy to parade in front of his brother in law.</p>
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		<title>By: DeDude</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233947</link>
		<dc:creator>DeDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233947</guid>
		<description>If they were going to fix problems in their export driven economy by replacing their export growth with domestic consumption they would have to put a lot more money into a Keynesian approach than that.  But their problems were not really a collapse of consumption in a consumer driven economy.  So Keynesian approaches were not that effective to begin with.  They had taken the unsustainable approach of growing their economy by export and just like our growth by consumer credit in the past decade, that can only work for a limited period before it kills itself.  Their other major problem was demographic with an aging population.  That problem again is not solvable by Keynesian approaches.  However, what the Keynesian approach did, was to keep the level of suffering for the population at a much lower level.  The people that are crying about the lost decades in Japan are the investor class.  Regular people are doing just fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they were going to fix problems in their export driven economy by replacing their export growth with domestic consumption they would have to put a lot more money into a Keynesian approach than that.  But their problems were not really a collapse of consumption in a consumer driven economy.  So Keynesian approaches were not that effective to begin with.  They had taken the unsustainable approach of growing their economy by export and just like our growth by consumer credit in the past decade, that can only work for a limited period before it kills itself.  Their other major problem was demographic with an aging population.  That problem again is not solvable by Keynesian approaches.  However, what the Keynesian approach did, was to keep the level of suffering for the population at a much lower level.  The people that are crying about the lost decades in Japan are the investor class.  Regular people are doing just fine.</p>
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		<title>By: HCF</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233940</link>
		<dc:creator>HCF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233940</guid>
		<description>@DeDude:
&gt; They used huge amounts of money to save banks, not to build infrastructure. 

The Japanese didn&#039;t spend a lot on infrastructure?  Clearly, your news sources are different from mine:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/world/asia/06japan.html

Some salient quotes:
&quot;During those nearly two decades, Japan accumulated the largest public debt in the developed world — totaling 180 percent of its $5.5 trillion economy — while failing to generate a convincing recovery.&quot;
&quot;In total, Japan spent $6.3 trillion on construction-related public investment between 1991 and September of last year, according to the Cabinet Office. The spending peaked in 1995 and remained high until the early 2000s, when it was cut amid growing concerns about ballooning budget deficits.&quot;

HCF</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DeDude:<br />
&gt; They used huge amounts of money to save banks, not to build infrastructure. </p>
<p>The Japanese didn&#8217;t spend a lot on infrastructure?  Clearly, your news sources are different from mine:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/world/asia/06japan.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/06/world/asia/06japan.html</a></p>
<p>Some salient quotes:<br />
&#8220;During those nearly two decades, Japan accumulated the largest public debt in the developed world — totaling 180 percent of its $5.5 trillion economy — while failing to generate a convincing recovery.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;In total, Japan spent $6.3 trillion on construction-related public investment between 1991 and September of last year, according to the Cabinet Office. The spending peaked in 1995 and remained high until the early 2000s, when it was cut amid growing concerns about ballooning budget deficits.&#8221;</p>
<p>HCF</p>
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		<title>By: DeDude</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233931</link>
		<dc:creator>DeDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 21:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233931</guid>
		<description>HCF; The time that companies are realizing that they have cut back to much is when the consumer comes back into money, not when unemployment is 10% heading for 15% heading for?.  The production cuts are always to late and that is why initially inventories build as the economy falls.  The companies then draw a straight line and predict continuosly falling at the current pace.  So when the consumers start stabilizing (as in when government has given stimulus to stabilize the consumer class), those straight line predictions start to undershoot realities - and suddenly the companies run out of inventory.  People do not begin bying stuff when they have no job and get kicked out of their houses and the old car breaks down.  Because they have no money to buy it with and they cannot get any sane person or bank to loan them the money.  And that is a fact.  In a consumer driven economy, there is not natural stops to the downward spiral until you are way down and have lost decades of economic growth - that is why government has to intervene when the market forces fail and begin to unwind the economy.  Anything else is a huge and unnessesary waste of wealth (and potential wealth).  

No Japan was not very Keynesian in its response.  They used huge amounts of money to save banks, not to build infrastructure.  Furthermore, they had an economy where the export part of the equation was huge and all the money they pumped into the banking sector was used for carry-trade not for business loan to build exporting factories.  Their basic situation, problems, and approach were considerably different from ours, and their response was far from Keynesian (massive government stimulus).  But we can learn from them that you should not just hand over free money to the banks without conditions on how they are allowed to use that money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HCF; The time that companies are realizing that they have cut back to much is when the consumer comes back into money, not when unemployment is 10% heading for 15% heading for?.  The production cuts are always to late and that is why initially inventories build as the economy falls.  The companies then draw a straight line and predict continuosly falling at the current pace.  So when the consumers start stabilizing (as in when government has given stimulus to stabilize the consumer class), those straight line predictions start to undershoot realities &#8211; and suddenly the companies run out of inventory.  People do not begin bying stuff when they have no job and get kicked out of their houses and the old car breaks down.  Because they have no money to buy it with and they cannot get any sane person or bank to loan them the money.  And that is a fact.  In a consumer driven economy, there is not natural stops to the downward spiral until you are way down and have lost decades of economic growth &#8211; that is why government has to intervene when the market forces fail and begin to unwind the economy.  Anything else is a huge and unnessesary waste of wealth (and potential wealth).  </p>
<p>No Japan was not very Keynesian in its response.  They used huge amounts of money to save banks, not to build infrastructure.  Furthermore, they had an economy where the export part of the equation was huge and all the money they pumped into the banking sector was used for carry-trade not for business loan to build exporting factories.  Their basic situation, problems, and approach were considerably different from ours, and their response was far from Keynesian (massive government stimulus).  But we can learn from them that you should not just hand over free money to the banks without conditions on how they are allowed to use that money.</p>
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		<title>By: DeDude</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233922</link>
		<dc:creator>DeDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:49:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233922</guid>
		<description>Run Harry run.  You and a zillion other people are waiting for that magic break of the 1100 before you bail.  In the mean time the big boyz are bailing at 1095 selling as much as they can to those euphoric sheeple and getting out before you ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Run Harry run.  You and a zillion other people are waiting for that magic break of the 1100 before you bail.  In the mean time the big boyz are bailing at 1095 selling as much as they can to those euphoric sheeple and getting out before you ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: HCF</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233921</link>
		<dc:creator>HCF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:46:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233921</guid>
		<description>typo: I meant to say &quot;SUPPRESS during good times&quot; in the above post...

HCF</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>typo: I meant to say &#8220;SUPPRESS during good times&#8221; in the above post&#8230;</p>
<p>HCF</p>
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		<title>By: HCF</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233920</link>
		<dc:creator>HCF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233920</guid>
		<description>@DeDude:

When an economic downturn happens, companies cut back, often TOO MUCH.  When they realize this, they begin to ramp up production again.  Similarly, consumers pull back spending, also often by TOO MUCH.  Eventually, though, people need to buy stuff, if for no other reason, to replace old stuff: cars, houses, etc.

Government intervention into this process almost always results in a misallocation of resources, which leads to a longer recovery time.  If you doubt this, then exhibit A is Japan, a nation that was by far the most Keynesian in its response to an economic crisis. 

The problem with using the Great Depression as an example of &quot;why we need Keynesianism&quot; is that government intervention helped blow the bubble of the 20&#039;s and to exacerbate the depression of the 30&#039;s.  For Keynesianism to truly work, you&#039;d have to have actual counter-cyclical policies to STIMULATE during weak times, and SUPPRESS during bad times.  There is no political will to possibly ever implement this...  It is easier to remove Federal governments from this part of the economy and have it only as a referee, to enforce rules and crack down on fraud.

HCF</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DeDude:</p>
<p>When an economic downturn happens, companies cut back, often TOO MUCH.  When they realize this, they begin to ramp up production again.  Similarly, consumers pull back spending, also often by TOO MUCH.  Eventually, though, people need to buy stuff, if for no other reason, to replace old stuff: cars, houses, etc.</p>
<p>Government intervention into this process almost always results in a misallocation of resources, which leads to a longer recovery time.  If you doubt this, then exhibit A is Japan, a nation that was by far the most Keynesian in its response to an economic crisis. </p>
<p>The problem with using the Great Depression as an example of &#8220;why we need Keynesianism&#8221; is that government intervention helped blow the bubble of the 20&#8242;s and to exacerbate the depression of the 30&#8242;s.  For Keynesianism to truly work, you&#8217;d have to have actual counter-cyclical policies to STIMULATE during weak times, and SUPPRESS during bad times.  There is no political will to possibly ever implement this&#8230;  It is easier to remove Federal governments from this part of the economy and have it only as a referee, to enforce rules and crack down on fraud.</p>
<p>HCF</p>
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		<title>By: DeDude</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233919</link>
		<dc:creator>DeDude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233919</guid>
		<description>The current total US debt of about 350% of GDP is as uncomfortable for the country as a total debt of 350K would be for a household making 100K/year.  Uncomfortable, but far from a disaster.  The strongest argument for paying it down is not that it will throw us into the abyss, but that it is immoral to pass your expenses to the next generation.  

The biggest threat to the recovery and our economy is not stimulus, but politicians doing the right thing at the wrong time and pace.  It may happen exactly as in the 30‘ies.  We get scared of the debt and pull government spending back to fast and to early.  We may mess up like Volker did with the 1980-83 ressesion doing the right thing to fast, and create a nasty and even longer second dip.  If the republicans get one more senate seat next year it is almost guaranteed to happen.  Even if they were smart enough to understand what they were doing, it would still be in their best self interest to kill the economic recovery so they could beat Obama in 2012.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The current total US debt of about 350% of GDP is as uncomfortable for the country as a total debt of 350K would be for a household making 100K/year.  Uncomfortable, but far from a disaster.  The strongest argument for paying it down is not that it will throw us into the abyss, but that it is immoral to pass your expenses to the next generation.  </p>
<p>The biggest threat to the recovery and our economy is not stimulus, but politicians doing the right thing at the wrong time and pace.  It may happen exactly as in the 30‘ies.  We get scared of the debt and pull government spending back to fast and to early.  We may mess up like Volker did with the 1980-83 ressesion doing the right thing to fast, and create a nasty and even longer second dip.  If the republicans get one more senate seat next year it is almost guaranteed to happen.  Even if they were smart enough to understand what they were doing, it would still be in their best self interest to kill the economic recovery so they could beat Obama in 2012.</p>
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		<title>By: HarryWanger</title>
		<link>http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/understatement-recovery-hampered-by-unemployment/comment-page-2/#comment-233908</link>
		<dc:creator>HarryWanger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/?p=43494#comment-233908</guid>
		<description>Patiently waiting. If SPX can manage through 1100 by 3:30, It&#039;ll run quickly. Doesn&#039;t seem to want to get there though. If not, I&#039;ll initiate a new position in SDS. Finger on the trigger, patiently waiting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patiently waiting. If SPX can manage through 1100 by 3:30, It&#8217;ll run quickly. Doesn&#8217;t seem to want to get there though. If not, I&#8217;ll initiate a new position in SDS. Finger on the trigger, patiently waiting.</p>
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