Saturday Night Open Thread
Okay kiddies, so far, the blizzard has been a bust — Saw some flakes a few hours ago, but the total accumulation is precisely zero. Sears and Home Depot are sold out of snow blowers; no surprise with expectations for a total nighttime snow accumulation of 10 to 16 inches.
Did a little car shopping today — big sales on 2009 models! — but didn’t commit to anything. Other than that, I have been thinking about next year’s markets, upcoming vacation, and prepping my quarterly taxes.
What are y’all thinking about? What are you reading, watching, listening to? What do you expect to see next year? What are you hoping to get for the holidays ?
Yes, its that time — open thread!
What say ye?
~~~
UPDATE: December 19, 2009 6:43am
Starting really blowing last night around 7 — looks like we got about 10-12 inches over night here on the North Shore, while Eastern Long Island got 24 inches.
Getting stuck inside on a Saturday night was no worries — a Dr. Who special, and then this season’s premiere was an enjoyable way to while away the snowbound evening. And the 50 mph wind kept the snow off the satellite dish!
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December 19th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
BR – Currently in San Diego and the weather is truly horrific (75 degrees & sunny). Enjoy your blog big time.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
In the DC suburbs, we’ve already got 16″ and it’s still snowing like hell.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Re: Bernanke
If you’ve read the New Yorker (9/21) article, “Eight Days” by James B. Stewart, you come away with a new appreciation of Bernanke. And yes, he’s got balls. I now believe, strongly, that he deserves reappointment.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I predict 2010 will be the year of the “angry male” (not an original thought) for which many of BR’s posters will have a good head start!
December 19th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
I’m thinking about the utter fraud that is the United States of America, this time, with health care. I saw where the Great Leader finally got his 60th vote in the Senate on health care. So it now truly is a cradle-to-grave government. I’m so glad to be one of the sheep of the Great Shepherd Obama.
But this obsession with the continuation of life at any expense will be the thing that destroys us. You simply can’t spend half a million dollars in the last six months of everyone’s life to keep them alive another day and have a viable society. The half-million has to come from something productive. We aren’t that rich. We need to realize that death is a necessary part of life. As Ricky Bobby said in the trailers at the end of Talladega Nights, “98% of everyone alive today will die in their lifetime”.
Notice how the news cycle has become all Obama, all the time? A friend of mind from Venezeula remarked that Hugo Chavez monopolizes coverage in his country in much the same way.
Obama, like Chaves, stands for the ever tightening concentration of power in Washington. But this country is not Venezeula and is not ready for this. I’m thinking the more he gathers power for Washington, the less likely it is he will be POTUS in 2012.
As for me, I’m trying to figure out where else there might be to go. This country is done. Stick a fork in it. Any ideas?
December 19th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
hey Curmudgeon
I have to admit to not really understanding the rabid anti health care movement. (feel free to explain).
Health Care isn’t my issue — don’t really care too much about it — but most Western countries have a more cost effective, higher quality national health care than we do. Capitalist nations like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Japan all get much more than we do for much less.
And our system, with incompetent insurers acting to prevent you from getting care makes no sense whatsoever.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Saw Avatar 3D last night. Thumbs up. Best special effects ever.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:33 pm
2010 will be a watershed year for global warming. If the planet gets warmer then those who say it is the Sun will eat crow. If the planet gets cooler, then those who say it is all CO2…. well they will keep on saying it is all CO2, but fewer will listen to them. Either way the political/advocacy part of the science will be further exposed and real & objective science will take its place.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
2nd kid headed to college in 2 weeks while 1st kid is now considering grad school. Besides the normal business concerns, thinking about the lifestyle changes related to the empty nest. Hasn’t really sunk in yet …
December 19th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
If we get 6″ or less with no power outages, then I will celebrate!!!!
December 19th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
@The Curmudgeon
My SHTF plan is Chile. I visited there in 2005 and loved it. With its miles of uninhabited beaches, self-sufficiency in agriculture and food, it reminds one of California in the 1930s- only 13M people and 5 million are in Santiago. I have a friend who like Uruguay as well. Both governments are relatively right of center and fiscally responsible. Feliz Navidad!
December 19th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
all of you are obsessively negative. and I am surprised at this.
just think if the colonies just laid down their muskets in 1775 because the British
were THE power in the world.
just think of those who wished to abolish slavery 3 centuries ago and those who
thought women should vote.
just think of those who survived the Great Depression only to make our country into
what it is today.
just think that the world still is influenced by the Dow Jones and the S&P averages more
than any other bourse in the world.
Is this pessimism what we are made of? we are still the greatest country in the world.
And get used to it.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:06 pm
This coming year, Ben Bernanke and the Central Bankers better mutually forgive the bulk of each others’ sovereign debts, lest the fears of default and default contagion spread or merely fester.
I don’t know that that’s their plan. But, since the alternatives seem worse, I hope they’re working towards this.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Personally, I’m hoping that conservatives will come to recognize what we liberals have always known: That there is nothing that the American people can’t do if they’re willing to try.
I’m sick of right-wingers telling me America is a failure; that we’ve come as far as we ever will; that there isn’t enough pie for every American to live a decent life and have the chance to achieve; that scarcity means that a few must rule and the rest must be slaves.
I was just hired on to teach a course again this summer on the history of the US since 1960. I’m happy, because it gives me a chance to compare the good Republican Party of Eisenhower, Nixon and Ford, which was built on making America great, against the evil Republican Party of Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II, which was built on burning this nation to the ground so it could be rebuilt into some sort of Ayn Randian paradise.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
Here in Amish country PA we have already received 14 ” and it’s actually snowing harder now than it has all day. The wind is picking up too. i’ve shovelled the driveway twice (second time using the big snow thrower i haven’t used in years – one of the better investments i’ve made) and after a few hours it’s hard to tell i even touched it!
Yesterday i almost drove off the road in complete jaw-dropping fascination at a cloud of starlings doing aerial ballet in some big fields out in the hinterland. It was a great example of the “hive” mentality at work as they all dove and wheeled at the same instant in a gigantic display of grace, and probably fun.
Robert d – we’ve lost control of “our” government to corporate corruption and no one knows how to get it back to working for us again without armed insurrection. The pessimism will morph into anger eventually, then look out.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:11 pm
I’m long gold, short the dollar, and gradually getting short equities.
I am looking for a significant (15-20% or worse) correction — but so far, no luck . . .
I’ve been making some money this year, but not killing it (like 2008)
December 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Agree with Transor that “Dances with Aliens” — I mean “Avatar” — was fun. “Pandora” is a *very beautiful* place to visit…perhaps even stay.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
@curmudgeon
I can see from a philosophical point of view going off on Obama. But your reference to end of life care, being a great point, I might add, should be directed at his opponents, not him. Its all those fekin right wing Christians that are in favor of keeping us alive until whenever. (See death panels and Terry Schiavo)
BR is correct in my view. Our heath care system is nuts. Lead, follow, or get the f out of the way.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Regarding the storm. It could be the best of both worlds when christmas retail sales are reported. They will be juiced by storm related goods; shovels, blowers, etc. At the same time we have a built in excuse for any potential shortfall because of the storm…..
December 19th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
For the commenter who said Bernanke should be re-appointed and to Robert D…an interesting alternate viewpoint.
http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1752-There-Is-No-Way-Out-Of-This-Box…..html
December 19th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Short term. We’ll get over 12″ from this, maybe twice that much – should be some pretty good surf if the wind settles down.
Long term. Despite the “tea parties” and other nonsense, I think the US is sliding more and more to the left. Just look around, we’re heading there. Example, the History Channel which used to be a full on Greatest Generation greatest hits channel, is now showing progreams representing Howard Zinn as a great American – with accolades for people like Eugene Debs and union organizers.
Frankly, i think the swing left is healthy – especially if it ends the worship of Wall Street.
Plus Zinn is a great American.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
banksters?
http://baselinescenario.com/2009/12/19/%E2%80%9Cit%E2%80%99s-certainly-not-for-a-lack-of-effort%E2%80%9D/
December 19th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
This blizzard is the real deal so far here outside of Philadelphia. Looks to be about 14″ on the ground, and still snowing.
Wind is coming up; waiting to see if the power stays on…
December 19th, 2009 at 7:43 pm
This is a financial cycle not a business cycle. I estimate that we are still relatively at the beginning of the massive deleveraging that is going to take a decade to unwind excessive debt globally. The bull market in stocks will be unmasked as a bear rally in 2010, and the contagion will spread not only financially but also in the real economy as nominal aggregate demand drops due to debt deflation and an increasing marginal propensity to save now that thrift is back in vogue.
The global risk is still deflation, not inflation. Monetary policy is ineffective in a liquidity trap, the banks are zombies, and there is little political will to use fiscal policy to fill the gap between falling AD and real output capacity. And there are still some big shoes to fall in the US and around the world. European finance is a basket case, and China is a wild card that could develop major problems every easily, walking the tightrope it is on. More war seems to be in the cards instead of less. With increasing instability in the world, the flight will be back in the direction of the dollar.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
Reading: Financial blogs, not really sure why, I’m not in finance nor do I wish to be, I guess part of me likes to see things fall apart and it looks like the economy is slowly catching up with our social values.
Thinking about: Hoping I can get a job before the next leg down and people start panicking again.
Hoping: Snow dumps down BIG TIME. I have a network of high school kids I pay $10 and hour to shovel driveways for me where I usually get $25 per driveway. Have been getting phone calls for the last three days, easy money.
New Biz Idea: A website that sells scalped tickets with the caveat that if the team wins you pay more, and if they lose you pay less. It’s an insurance policy on having fun at a sports games. If a ticket to a basketball game is $50 and your team wins presumably you’re happy and would have paid more, BUT if your team loses your pissed and for some people it wasn’t even worth going to the game. So $75 for a win and $25 for a loss, plus my 5% fee and a bunch of other hidden bs charges al la ticketmaster and you got yourself a little business.
Listening to: Sigur Ros is great treadmill music even if you wouldn’t think so.
Goals: 10 pull-ups with 90 pounds weights. I’m at about 6 now, and the growth is real real slow. Maybe I should just go MLB style and shoot up some roids.
Idea: scare kids away from steroids, my high school had a picture of the human body with all the detrimental effects. Their is only one thing that would scares most 16-19 yr olds “Steroids, they make your B@!!$ stop working” that would do.
Trying to decide: Is MMA more dangerous than boxing? Is it kinda grotesque? Personally I’d rather get punched 4 times in the head and probably get knocked out then 30o times by someone with padded gloves on. Is their any science saying tacking 10 punches without gloves is less dangerous than 300 with. Intuitively I see MMA as less dangerous than boxing – am I wrong?
Thinking: I don’t know why I’m writing all this I should probably be on a date.
December 19th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Wrt health care:
“Capitalist nations like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Japan all get much more than we do for much less.”
I believe this is the crux of the problem: our health care system is simply inefficient. Is the health care bill fixing this at all? I really don’t know, I simply don’t have enough time to stay informed…
December 19th, 2009 at 8:01 pm
For a light, fun reading..here are Gerald Celente’s top 10 predictions for 2010….I find most of them rather interesting and at least he has somewhat decent of a track record…
http://www.trendsresearch.com/journal.html
December 19th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
@wunsacon:
Dances with Aliens. Awesome. :-)
December 19th, 2009 at 8:07 pm
blizzard is bust????
maybe up in NY- 23″ so far Virginia suburb of DC-
what a show!
anyway- re health care- what a fucking joke-
let’s empower the insurance companies, fine and imprison non-compliers, and offer ZERO single payer option-
better to have nothing- because MOST people ARE ALREADY COVERED-
if you can’t understand that Ritholtz- then WTF?????
December 19th, 2009 at 8:08 pm
Against all my better judgment, I’m strangely drawn to the Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe.The car is stunningly beautiful and, on paper anyways, is a stout performer.The magazine tests offer plenty of sobering arguments against this car.I think “Government Motors” is selling them at(25k) a reasonable markdown of over 20% off MSRP. American iron generally has a terrible resale value so I’m much better off waiting for one on the secondary market.A used Honda S2000 w/ removable hardtop is probably a better choice for fit,finish,reliability,performance and anything (other than aesthetics) else I can think of.
And our system, with incompetent insurers acting to prevent you from getting care makes no sense whatsoever.
The Senate bill requires everyone w/o insurance to go purchase it from those same incompetent insurers.
Other provisions will raise the cost of that insurance.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
also-
that f411 teaches makes me cringe- as if he knows anything
December 19th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
robert d ‘asks some good Questions’/poses some good points..
hardly, “angry”, or a “rebel”, am I. File it under ‘Ripley’s', if you must, but, I look back at our Nation’s History and see many things worth conserving.
does it matter that “The Great Depression” can be construed as “Economy Ramp n’ Crash1.0″?
to me, ultimately, it doesn’t matter the narrative we choose to describe Yesterday..
We should remember, at the minimum, the Past is a Carcass that no longer Hunts..
Today is the Day we can to something with, and Tomorrow is something we can do something about..
though, does it matter that We, still?, have the capacity for Critical Thinking?
Yes, I’d say, most definitely..
In that vein, I bother to inject much of what I, personally, Underwrite.
Underwriting, how f***ing quaint~ do We even remember when Underwriters were held personally responsible for that which did underwrite?
Guess what, Personal Responsibilty was the only thing that allowed Liberty to thrive, and, it will be the only thing that’ll resuscitate it.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/resuscitate
yes, try the transitive verb
and, [Latin resuscitre, resuscitt- : re-, re- + suscitre, to stir up (sus-, sub-, sub- + citre, to move violently, frequentative of cire, to set in motion; see kei-2 in Indo-European roots).]
“…by the time the banking crisis started in the Depression, the leadership of the Federal Reserve System had forgotten the purpose that Strong understood so well. They let the banks fail, to catastrophic consequences. Evidently Mr. Woolley did not have the power or influence to get done what he knew Governor Strong would have done.
On the other hand, Austrian School economists like Murray Rothbard have seen Benjamin Strong as a villain for expanding the money supply beyond its hard money base. Without that expansion, there could have been no credit collapse, no banking crisis, and the Depression would not have begun…” http://www.aanotes.com/collecting/banknotes/6US.htm
further, http://www.finearttouch.com/The_Rise_of_the_Medici,_Florentine_Bankers.html
December 19th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
i always thought that selling votes was illegal. what happened to all the big and loud mouths who were supposed to scream at nebraska senator nelson for his vote change? all that took some time was concern over “how much?” and then when the price was met he sold out. bribery should be underlined in every speech about nelson.
taxpayers now have to add more to their debt to the usa. excuse me, excluding nebraskans.
once you start to take, your always suspect.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Not much in Dallas this evening. Weather is rather warm; it would be nice to get some of that white stuff down here.
Reflecting upon next semester (first semester in graduate school), and preparing an illustrative stock market game for my wife’s sibling and I to have fun with over the next few years. Don’t really know if they will be interested in the idea (her siblings are under 20). To use an ill-phrase (and an infinitive) to describe my thoughts: “I’ll just throw it against the wall and see if it sticks.”
Other than that, not much else going on. Glad to spend time with those I care about the most this season, regardless of all the valid complaints lobbed against everyone from Anna to Zack these days.
Best,
rcs
December 19th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Damn Curmudgeon, what a killjoy
Was the matter, you don’t want to live your life like an arrested adolescent and abdicate all your adult responsibilities over to the government so you can live out the creed set forth in the Declaration of Independence where it says “and the pursuit of happiness” like a teenager your whole adult life?
You should live by White Trash Marts.. uh I mean……. Wal Marts motto….Spend less, Live Better by concentration on realizing FABULOUS SAVINGS on all the cheap Chinese crap for less, then bitching that there are no more middle class manufacturing jobs in the country. Or maybe Chase banks motto to “Chase whats important” like 52″HD flat screen tv’s or $150 sneakers. You know, the stuff that makes life worth living.
SO what if the US education system isn’t even in the top 20 in the world. Who needs education when you have no adult responsibilities except to vote for whoever will give you the best governmental benefits to keep you buying stuff your whole life.
So what if the total debt outstanding is like 56 trillion dollars. You and I will be long dead a buried before that bill comes due. If the kids of today want to live as well as we do today when their adults, let them get their own Greatest generation of people to hand them the most successful country in the history of the world to give it to them. Them they can piss it away like the baby boomers did. I mean who do they think they are anyway to want us to give them a country better then the one we got from our parents.
If you want to leave the United Corporate/ Socialist States of Mexico…..Uhh….. I mean the United Stated of America go ahead. But I’m telling you that the best is yet to come where we’ll all be living large for the rest of our lives, then die and leave the bill to all those yet unborn. What a great deal. And you though Bernie Madoff was a good thief, huh.
December 19th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
and this health care charade still enrages me-
tell me BR- why so indifferent? NOW everyone will be covered- at the expense of those covered already? And the insurance companies guaranteed new business thanks to the USG- and we trust the insurance companies WHY????
Are they NOT the middle man???? Skimming profits off the healthy to pay the expenses of the sick all to the benefit of the corporate officers who make millions-
my advice- re-evaluate who you are and what you believe
December 19th, 2009 at 8:39 pm
HealthCare for all .. even in cap’ism … (Senate got 60) I’m happy for what I think the bill contains .. hope I can afford the mandate (does it include the dog-tag provision “do not resuscitate / no insurance & no bankruptcy for this dog)
global climate change .. heard on Charlie Rose last nite .. Carbon tax getting amore thumbs up over Cap’nTrade .. as explained I’m in favor of CO2 tax too (tax neutral to almost all) .. “Robinhood Carbon Tax” “take from the polluters give payback to all” .. as opposed to the WallStreet sollution
robert d & franklin411 .. this negative nabob says play
The Eagles – The Last Resort (HD) (Vinyl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3OwSohwH90
“starlings doing aerial ballet” .. wow .. they are making good time .. here too .. millions looking like those schools of fish in the sea swishing this way and that ……. “then look out” .. aahhaa ShockDoc/DisastCap to the rescue
“keeping us alive until whenever” .. who? .. I thought it was the bottom of the Diamond Institutions
TeddyD :-) .. you and your buds be in good shape for DisastCap … this is all for you
December 19th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
We have something around 24″ in the greater Baltimore area.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
@f411
same liberals were bashing America when Bush was a president..you seem to forgot all about that.
I am short Gold until it test lower 1000 (GLD @100).
Chile is awesome. If you ever go there, try to make it to Pucon, best place I’ve ever visited.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
How is man made global warming coming along?
http://dissention.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/the_new_priests_01/
http://dissention.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/the-new-priests-02/
December 19th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
Amidst all the disinformational dross out there, there is some good information as regards the health plan.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/25/AR2009112503536.html
This actually mentions, like, specifics. You know – as opposed to all that hot button bs with, on the one hand, socialism, and on the other, say, insurance company sellout.
Although you won’t like it if you’ve already made your mind up that the health plan is a POS or worse.
Does critical thinking matter and is it necessary to look underneath such slogans as “real estate always goes up in price”?
Other than that, a 48 degree evening here in the SF E Bay which the locals (oh yes, I guess that includes me after 20 years here) consider cold.
Took out the guitar – something I do at least once a year – and was trying to remember the chords to my rendition of Mel Torme’s “The Christmas Song”. Which most people seem to remember as “Chestnuts Roasting On An Open Fire.” Except that that’s not the song’s real name.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
In NC where we are we missed the “Big Snow” …but with gloomy grey skies for days and rain and rain and more rain…we are holded in doing our quarterly business taxes, too. Also we are re-balancing our IRA-401-K and private investments.
Dividends, BABY…and looking at our winners. Holding a little gold through the panics… What the Hell…gotta always keep a little of that one…right?
Figuring out our donations to charities to make the deadline and trying to direct our donations to places of greatest needs. Some Arts, much Food Bank and the little of the rest spread out to various causes who are struggling given the big donors pulling out now what most of what Wall St. and Insurance Co’s wanted has been given them.
We look to those who have nothing that we think are worthwhile. And, in this gloom and crap we try to balance …”When is Enough…Enough” as our thoughts move into the new year ahead and how we plan for our future.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
The crux of the healthcare problem in the US is as follows:
1.Worldwide, it has been shown that the “Fee for service” model is not consistent with cost containment.
2.Medical malpractise issues. This increases costs in two ways. The cost of the insurance itself, which can run up to USD 250K pa. Then, the threat of litigation forces physicians to run every test known to mankind AND use the latest most expensive drugs.
3.Insurance in the US does not function as a “Risk pool”. Instead, Insurers are allowed to cherry pick who they will insure.
4.Pharmaceutical Companies, as an average, earn 80% of their profit from the US market alone, which represents 4% of global population.
None of these key issues is addressed by the new legislation, hence the support from the Pharmaceutical Companies and Insurers. Nothing will change and the US will continue to pay double the share of GDP with worse outcomes in comparison to other developed countries.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:26 pm
BTW, we haven’t had any snow yet this year in Bali. I don’t think we will be getting a white christmas.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
@Curmudgeon, although I disagree with most of your post. I thing you are right in the sentiment that we all have to die, and too much is spent at the the end of our life. The sad part is that aging is considered a chronic disease and is “manageable” with a magic pill. At least that’s what big pharma wants us to believe. I prefer looking at quality of life rather just extending it for a few more months.
You get to lead the way and show us how limited your end-of-life burden can be on the taxpayer. Euthanasia is probably the cheapest way to go.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
Glad so many other people have their minds made up about the US health plan (including people that claim they live [by inference?] in Bali!). Must relieve you from the tedium of actually thinking.
I found this interesting. It like, you know, actually mentions details and specifics. As opposed to all those sweeping and dismissive claims I hear.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/25/AR2009112503536.html
December 19th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
@Mark E Hoffer Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
robert d ‘asks some good Questions’/poses some good points..
hardly, “angry”, or a “rebel”, am I. File it under ‘Ripley’s’, if you must, but, I look back at our Nation’s History and see many things worth conserving.
does it matter that “The Great Depression” can be construed as “Economy Ramp n’ Crash1.0″?
to me, ultimately, it doesn’t matter the narrative we choose to describe Yesterday..
We should remember, at the minimum, the Past is a Carcass that no longer Hunts..
—————
AH…MEH..
Remember the repeal of Glass-Steagall?
If only…If only….
December 19th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
10. Ecuador Declares Foreign Debt Illegitimate
11. Private Corporations Profit from the Occupation of Palestine
12. Mysterious Death of Mike Connell—Karl Rove’s Election Thief
13. Katrina’s Hidden Race War
14. Congress Invested in Defense Contracts
15. World Bank’s Carbon Trade Fiasco
16. US Repression of Haiti Continues
17. The ICC Facilitates US Covert War in Sudan
18. Ecuador’s Constitutional Rights of Nature
19. Bank Bailout Recipients Spent to Defeat Labor
20. Secret Control of the Presidential Debates
21. Recession Causes States to Cut Welfare
22. Obama’s Trilateral Commission Team
23. Activists Slam World Water Forum as a Corporate-Driven Fraud
24. Dollar Glut Finances US Military Expansion
http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/category/two-thousand-and-ten-book/
TakBak,
don’t forget about #4, on that list..
Philipat,
fret not, kick back and try one of these-
http://www.pbase.com/jorginho/image/41341110
December 19th, 2009 at 9:38 pm
patfla@
“Glad so many other people have their minds made up about the US health plan (including people that claim they live [by inference?] in Bali!). Must relieve you from the tedium of actually thinking.”
Sorry I am so stupid. I only spent 35 years in the healthcare business at the CEO level so I should know nothing.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
investorinpa, nice link. I had to laugh a bit as I am guilty of so many new trends, however they aren’t so new to me.
Love the revulsion of TB! I hope it does catch on, as I have been so disgusted by the whole attitude of “the bigger the better”. I love my 1000sf house (and tiny pg&e bills). My old M3 (which used to be a mid-sized car) is smaller than a new Honda Civic (which is supposed to be a small car). I cringe at the portions every time I go out to dinner, it’s usually enough for 2-3 people!
I also confess to being a part of the “Not made in China” movement, but I have taken it further to buying local if possible, and buying Made in the USA or Canada if it’s not local. It’s made shopping so much more mindful, and I only buy things I NEED, and research every purchase.
We are also saving to buy our retirement property, which will be close to a small town, will have several acres, and have irrigation water. So I guess that’s Neo-Survivalism.
So what am I thinking about? How can I get out of this damn cubicle and get out of this IT career but still survive? What on earth are we all in store for in 2010? I simply cannot see how things can continue on, everyone just going along acting like everything is a-ok. But I am constantly shocked and surprised at the ability for the people around me to just not pay attention. They actually all think I’m nuts for even thinking or worrying about anything. So maybe I am the one that is wrong? I can’t help but feel like Cassandra, seeing a world that no one else sees or wants to see..
December 19th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
@bsneath Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I predict 2010 will be the year of the “angry male” (not an original thought) for which many of BR’s posters will have a good head start!
———-
“Angry Males” do seem to own the Financial Blogosphere Commenters.
I’m glad to see the “Angry Females” some who write blogs and have the Angry Male Commenters and Meredith Whitney…who is about as “down to earth” as one can get who somehow can move markets. It’s also nice to see Elizabeth Warren have some play as seemingly one honest one amongst the thieves.. Still, it’s not really sex…it’s who is in power. Good and bad policies can be championed amongst both sexes. Just depends on the dominant numbers of each and when there’s re-balance the views can change according to who wants to keep the “power.”
But…it does seem the “Angry Male” is the one who should be shouting louder in the coming times.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Since Health Care is the topic du jour, I want to give huge kudos to my health care provider, The VA Medical System.
Outstanding at every single turn. I feel blessed not to have to put up with and go through what a majority of Americans must do to obtain first class health care.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
TakBak,
w/this post December 19th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
what is your point?
December 19th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Talk about “bait and switch”.I priced the Pontiac Solstice GXP Coupe off the web site and it gave an MSRP of 31 k with an “offer” of $6500 off. I went back out of temptation and found the “price cut” reflected “0%” financing savings not a reduction in purchase price. No savings for paying cash.I’d ask who the hell finances a totally impractical 30k sports car(you have no business buying that car if you can’t pay cash) but I suppose the answer is a reflection of why the economy is in such a sorry state.
Good riddance to GM, but still it is very beautiful:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2009_Pontiac_Solstice_GXP_coupe_NY.jpg
No more production so it is kind of like buying a Studebaker Avanti in 1963. Only 65 total production.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
patfla-
so . . . all in on any win for Obama?
of course-
it’s unfair that partisans have it so easy- because their mind is made up for them- no thinking required
December 19th, 2009 at 10:01 pm
“65k total production”
http://image.motortrend.com/f/17847174/112_0904_03z+2009_pontiac_solstice_GXP_coupe+side_view.jpg
December 19th, 2009 at 10:02 pm
@Jim Green
Yes, the VA provides outstanding care. Largely because it is free from ALL of the constraints noted in my earlier post, so it can just get on with the business of providing outstanding AND cost effective care.
Incidentally, one solution for many would be to forget about US Insurance and when needing treatment jump on a jet to Thailand. The specialists are outsatnding and, ALL trained in the US so have succesfully translated the US healthcare system back to Thailand. Costs are about 10% of US levels and you can have a nice vacation in Phuket or Samui to recuperate. Singapore no longer recommended as it has become a money machine.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
Ducky,
try http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/pontiac/solstice/101137908/optionsresults.html?action=2
edmund’s rarely gets this type of thing ‘wrong’..
December 19th, 2009 at 10:14 pm
BR – this site is the best in the ether. Thank you very much!! If we can notch up the poster level a few clicks, you’ll have something close to what Brad Setser had going. Posters: give the political bashing a rest – there’s no hope. The 2-party system is fiction. Heard on NPR that someone has a Whack-a-banker arcade game. Going well – his main expense is replacing broken mallets.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:15 pm
@philipat Says:
How about providing references for your 4 claims regarding the crux of the health care problem.
1.Worldwide, it has been shown that the “Fee for service” model is not consistent with cost containment.
->Which OECD countries tried “Fee for service” and came to that conclusion? And then changed that systmem?
2.Medical malpractise issues.
-> How much of the total health care cost is this?
4.Pharmaceutical Companies, as an average, earn 80% of their profit from the US market alone, which represents 4% of global population.
Really? Please provide proof that pharma companies make 80% of their profits in the US
December 19th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
Hey, Ahab,
Hope you’re keeping warm. I’m just about to slip on my flip-flops (Smart casual) and head out for a Bintang or 3 before lunch (Beer before wine is fine?). Should ask Barry to rename this an Open Thread “Saturday Night and Sunday Morning”
December 19th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
It was briefly tempting to get involved in some of the arguments, like health care, but I’m just feeling to good about things in my life to dwell too long in such a negative environment. I am curious, though, why so many bloggers who claim to be financial and economic wizards aren’t doing better than they appear to be doing based on their posts. Sure, we have some serious problems, but we’ve faced, and overcome, serious problems before and we will be called upon to do so again. Meanwhile, our glass is still half full, gentleman, so I find it hard to believe so many see the glass as nearly empty. I suppose negativity attracts the most attention as well as sells the most papers.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:23 pm
@Super-Trooper
I have expressed an opinion and tried to contribute to the debate based on a career in the healthcare business, in all corners of the globe which has given me some perspective. If you don’t agree with my opinions that’s fine. Please, then explain why the US DOES spend 18% of GDP on healthcare with worse outcomes than other OECD countries who spend typically less than half of that amount?
December 19th, 2009 at 10:27 pm
@ philipat
Stating that “Pharmaceutical Companies, as an average, earn 80% of their profit from the US market alone”
is not an opinion, it is stated as a fact. If you express your opinion you could say. “I believe……..”
December 19th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I’m getting about as fed up with all the news regarding Tiger Woods as I was of Michael Jackson after his death. I’m starting to pray that someone else screws up or dies so we can at least change personas. What poses as the news in this country can be found in the prestigious National Enquirer.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:30 pm
@philipat
There is no point having a debate if people are making up facts.
As someone working in the healthcare business you must know how to reference work by others.
I don’t agree or disagree with your opinion I want you to provide proof.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
@Super-Trooper,
But, OK,to answer your questions:
1. To select a few at random, Canada, Australia, UK, France, Germany etc. In fact probably ALL OECD countries.
2.You are not getting the point. It is not ONLY the cost of the Insurance but the cost of unnecessary tests and the use of the newest most expensive medicines instead of perfectly good but older generic medicines as first line treatment.
3.I assume you agreed on this one?
4. For obvious reasons, the Pharmaceutical MNC’s usually break out SALES by geographical region but NOT profits. You need either to ask anyone who works in the global Pharmaceuticla Companies or attend an AGM and ask questions.
I await you alternative explanation of the inefficiencies of the US system.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Excellent column by Frank Rich! We love being misled and deluding ourselves…
=========
Tiger Woods, Person of the Year
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/opinion/20rich.html
December 19th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
@ philipat
Please provide evidence that Germany used the “Fee for service” model.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
@Super-Trooper
“Stating that “Pharmaceutical Companies, as an average, earn 80% of their profit from the US market alone”
is not an opinion, it is stated as a fact. If you express your opinion you could say. “I believe……..”
No, I don’t “believe”, I know. If you don’t chosse to believe it that’s fine, but you might like to resort to one of the methodologies I have suggested above. And, no, I would not like to disclose which Company I retired from. Name rank and number only!
December 19th, 2009 at 10:43 pm
@Super-Tr00per,
“Please provide evidence that Germany used the “Fee for service” model.”
Are you a lobbyist for PhRma? ;-)
December 19th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
@ philipat
Bottom line is that you are unable to provide any reference for the claims you made.
Regarding #4. So you can’t provide any actual evidence. You just making an assumption or heard if from someone. Let me tell you, someone told me with regards to Iraq’s WMD “We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.”
December 19th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
@Mark E Hoffer Says:
December 19th, 2009 at 9:49 pm
TakBak,
w/this post December 19th, 2009 at 9:37 pm
what is your point?
—————-
I was replying to this part of your post, saying that after all we learned from the “GD” why was Glass-Steagall ever allowed to be repealed? It was just a comment.
“…by the time the banking crisis started in the Depression, the leadership of the Federal Reserve System had forgotten the purpose that Strong understood so well. They let the banks fail, to catastrophic consequences. Evidently Mr. Woolley did not have the power or influence to get done what he knew Governor Strong would have done.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
philpat-
hey dude- I like the snow- but I like the sun better (-:
and flip flops- Smart casual?
Awesome idea- probably have to wait until Spring though :D
December 19th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
@ philipat
No, I’m not a lobbyist. Don’t work for pharma. I have experienced several other healthcare systems including the German. And I can smell someone pulling S!%t out of their behind from very far away. You are deflecting.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
@philipat
“If you don’t chosse to believe it that’s fine, but you might like to resort to one of the methodologies I have suggested above. ”
What methodology did you suggest?
December 19th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
@Super-Trooper
“Regarding #4. So you can’t provide any actual evidence. You just making an assumption or heard if from someone. Let me tell you, someone told me with regards to Iraq’s WMD “We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat”
What I am actually doing is giving you the benefit of inside information, but if you don’t believe me, fine. It CAN be verified. However, to develop the discussion, what if it were true? Why do you suppose Big Pharma is supporting changes to the healthcare system? Could it be that there will be more patients to consume drugs and no attempt to consttrain costs? Your posts seem a little light on details of your own anaysis of the problems and proposals for a solution.
Anyways, I’m out of here, there’s a red snapper and a bottle of Chardonnay with my name on it awaiting.
December 19th, 2009 at 11:38 pm
I put together a short analysis of the impact of consumer debt accumulation from 1980 through 2008 on real GDP growth, and the potential impact of the reversal of this process at my blog.
Comments welcome at:
Gestalt
December 20th, 2009 at 4:05 am
@bsneath Says:December 19th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
I predict 2010 will be the year of the “angry male” (not an original thought) for which many of BR’s posters will have a good head start!
That is because we are visionaries. ;)
December 20th, 2009 at 7:05 am
I hope your back is not broken with all the shoveling…
no snowing here in Montreal, but quite cold -12 celsius
Obama’s health care plan: Everyone against it, again and again look at Canada and european countries.
The medical costs in U.S. are one of the reason I would never move south of the border.
But I’m worried about the transition to a universal health care plan in the U.S., with the economic depression, population aging, heavy drugs and obesity problems.
Another difficulty: U.S. has over 300 million individuals, Canada only 30 million, Quebec only 7 million, this kind of health plan doesn’t exist in the world for such a big country … Also how frauds will be avoided, in Quebec many people come from foreign countries with false medicards to get medical care.
Obama might have to choose between throwing money at the financial institutions or at the health care plan.
We all hope he has the same courage against financial corporations and elite.
Amazon’s kindle: great device, I want to buy it, lots of websites with free ebooks in all languages.
One small problem for me living in Montreal, Canada: I don’t have access to all the wireless services a U.S. customer has, no browsing available except for wikipedia.
Why would I pay the same price as a U.S. customer (+taxes+shipping+conversion to canadian dollars) if I don’t have the same services with it, browsing on news sites and others is not a small detail. My purchase is in standby for now until Amazon certifies that all services will be available to canadian customers. What about the freetrade zone ?
December 20th, 2009 at 8:45 am
funny, if anyone is interested, this, on C-SPAN3
American History TV on C-SPAN3 (Saturday December 19, 2009) 2In ProgressAiring Time:
7:00:00 AM – 10:00:00 AM
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/216928
especially the discussion of Jefferson’s and Adams’ discussion of Spiritualism v. Materiality..
LSS: Materiality- “Work with what you have..”
TakBak,
yes, we can spend the rest of our days with “If Only..”, though, simply, it isn’t productive, and, if we learned anything, ‘on the Playground’, the (sh-/c-/w-) oulda (‘s) is not OODA.
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=OODA+loop
December 20th, 2009 at 9:36 am
Anyone not think our economy was a Ponzi-like process that is unraveling?
Take this illustration…the Greenspan “conundrum” was why interest rates remained so low during our “boom” in the 90s. Well the answer is that as our trade deficit ballooned and we sent our dollars and manufacturing jobs to China, they took those dollars and plowed them back into treasuries, keeping rates low, so we could finance even more purchasing. It was a feedback loop that caused debt to GDP to be an unsustainable bubble. Here is where it will blow up…the trade deficit is plunging, just as we are trying to force more and more debt to stimulate the economy…China said as much this week. They are not getting the dollars from trade that they need to buy treasuries which keeps rates down. Ben has stepped in with QE and it has been a temporary salve…can he fill a potential 50 Trillion hole with it? No way. Expect rates to balloon, housing to get crushed again and the dollar to massively rally as higher rates make it more attractive and the carry trade unwinds. Could happen at anytime.
December 20th, 2009 at 9:45 am
As my scenario plays ot, de-leveraging must take place as debts will not be possible to roll over…forced liquidations will cause massive asset DE-flation.
December 20th, 2009 at 9:52 am
JoJo interesting piece .. I’ve been wondering if the rest of the story on “girls falling out of that tree” .. which girl was bought to get contract exits in these turbulent times
9/11 – Enron WorldCom Tyco HeathCareSouth – Bernie Madoff .. said before in this 5th Estate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Estate
December 20th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Just one word: plastics
December 20th, 2009 at 9:55 am
Barry
I rarely say much on this blog, since I am a net learner of financial and economic issues (this is the best place to start to gather clear info). I must however comment on take on health care, and to not care too much about it, when it makes up such a large portion of our spending just doesn’t seem “like you”.
The statement always bantered around “but most Western countries have a more cost effective, higher quality national health care than we do. Capitalist nations like Germany, UK, Switzerland, Japan all get much more than we do for much less.” is very misleading.
First of all it applies to entire populations, not sectors of the population. The elite of the world come to U.S. hospitals for their treatment. Very few fly to the countries you listed to get heart, brain, or transplant surgery. That is just a fact. The problem with our system exists at many levels, with all of us to blame.
1. Basic health care may be a “right”, but access to all health care is a privilege, no different than food, shelter, transportation, and education. Not everyone gets a Cadillac, prime rib, large house etc. Yet somehow, we have been lead to believe everyone deserves “the best”.
2. People are terribly ignorant about the end of life, think all life is sacred, and every minute is precious. They should spend some time in the hospitals volunteering to see what it is like, before they tell us physicians to “do everything”, especially since they are “not paying”
3. We physicians are equally responsible for refusing to police ourselves on this mess. Why most of us cannot take a stand and not offer treatment that will only cause pain and suffering, not become a “Highly Reliable Organization “ with less error and waste boggles my mind.
4. That people have no sense of personal responsibility, as simple as not smoking and watching your weight is also the problem. Smoking and obesity, two things that you can take care of yourself for free, we pay billions for. Why not tax cigarettes and fattening foods more. Why not charge them more for insurance?
Barry, I have been deeply involved in this for years, Obama’s plan skirts the real issues. Waste, carelessness, and personal responsibility. It would pay for itself if the politicians were not in the pocket of the military-industrial….oops, I meant medical-industrial complexes pockets!
December 20th, 2009 at 10:00 am
“discussion of Spiritualism v. Materiality..
LSS: Materiality- “Work with what you have..”
I hear ya ..
its like 1/2 our world expects a magical Being to come out of the clouds and do the work of man for them
God is a Spirit .. so is Satan .. both need hands and feet on the ground
… driven by PR wizards … pc imo
December 20th, 2009 at 10:05 am
Thanks Barry for a great book and a great blog. We got an inch or two of snow here in Michigan, enough for a nice white Xmas.
I wish that I were living across the river in Canada, where they have a sane health care system (and zero bank failures). I would like to see some curmudgeons visit there and tell people on the street that they are doomed by a socialist government!
December 20th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Steve@9:36am “Expect rates to balloon” .. I see that scenario too .. been wonderin in spare brain time – what instrument could I buy cheap – that will inflate in value and not be crushed in the process .. very complicated web
as a simpleton .. I’d be inclined to buy US Savings Bonds .. but the interest rates don’t float .. they need to be cashed and rebought in the new day …. I write this like you all are in kindergarten .. (like me) a snips and camera button pusher
December 20th, 2009 at 10:29 am
“plastics” .. heehaw
@zzzzmd .. imo America is the R&D new world entrepreneur capital of the world* and burdens its USA masses with providing (at reduced costs) the medical services you cite .. as well as policing the world on the cheap .. so the new entrepreneurs can milk us USA’ans for “personal profits and public losses”
* coda – that may be my USDA brain fed brain talkin
December 20th, 2009 at 10:36 am
They come here to live, buy our real estate, use our universities, hospitals……
Must be because we are so bad at all this “stuff”
Their cars and clothes are better though
Thats what a global economy is
December 20th, 2009 at 10:37 am
ZZZZMD’s post has it nearly correct. The only weak-link is that humans are not rational and will eat s#*t if there was a seductive woman or very hip crowd beckoning them. To believe that people (not only Americans) will take responsibility for what is sucked into their mouths is equivalent to the belief that the tooth fairy will fix the teeth of the residents of the UK (and Oz). Time to recognize that health care is not a “right”.
December 20th, 2009 at 10:49 am
HP, I know that more than you can ever know.
I am suggesting that they “pay” economically, and that those of us that do not drive drunk, eat like pigs, etc. get a tax/insurance advantage over the others.
If you wigh 300lbs, and I know your risk of heart surgery is tripled, your hospital stay doubled, your rehab cost tripled, and that weight loss, medical therapy is almost as good, why should I be forced to allow you to have the surgery.
It’s not your god given right! (disclamer, I am agnostic, bordering on atheism)
Not to mention, very unenjoyable to do (oh right, I am supposed to be priest like, do it for altruistic reasons. and not enjoy my work, not to mention do it for less than a plumber or auto mechanic makes)
December 20th, 2009 at 10:54 am
had to sign back in to say @zzzzmd .. maybe / no yes . I have enjoyed my USDA feedings of all sorts .. except that Winston .. dads smoke floated across the dinnertable right to me . every meal . gagged me
Conan the Barbarian (no clip available on YouTube) / via IMDB
Valeria: Do you want to live forever?
(Valerias sword is raised overhead / halts death for a moment)
answer: ya better have the cash stored up … and in a safe place
December 20th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Just a postscript to the ZZZZMD comments, although this is a major divergence: I think that those who support “Right to Life” political positions – like those who disregard reasonable eating and exercise habits but expect the “right” to public healthcare – should pay into a bond-fund, by state, to provide for the care, education, and well-being for the unwanted children who are the result of right-to-life legislation. Anti-abortion legislation would be the modern-day equivalent of Prohibition. Proposed new bumper sticker: “Got Rationality?”
December 20th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
“…Barry, I have been deeply involved in this for years, Obama’s plan skirts the real issues. Waste, carelessness, and personal responsibility. It would pay for itself if the politicians were not in the pocket of the military-industrial….oops, I meant medical-industrial complexes pockets!…”
“…3. We physicians are equally responsible for refusing to police ourselves on this mess. Why most of us cannot take a stand and not offer treatment that will only cause pain and suffering, not become a “Highly Reliable Organization “ with less error and waste boggles my mind.
4. That people have no sense of personal responsibility, as simple as not smoking and watching your weight is also the problem. Smoking and obesity, two things that you can take care of yourself for free, we pay billions for. Why not tax cigarettes and fattening foods more. Why not charge them more for insurance?..” –ZZZZMD, above
speaking of ‘Open-Source’-ing documents…
We should know that, here, too, that the Reason this, referred to above, document flow is not ‘opened up’ is because the “medical-industrial complex” is, yet, another, Oz that hides the Curtain to terrorize our Lives, and Impoverish our Spiritual/Physical Being.
We are, truly, on “The Road to Serfdom”, the End of which, requires, not knowing how to ‘Hang Ten’, just, hanging, by tens..
http://mises.org/books/TRTS/
in Pictures, for those who failed out of R.I.F..
December 20th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
hides /behind/ the Curtain.
December 20th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
@hpinraleigh:
Wrt humans eating shit — let’s not bring 2 girls 1 cup into this. Nasty.
December 20th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
The more I read the comments above, the more I realize how we all have it made.
The current crises present enormous opportunities to those with an education,
a flair for doing something new, and are willing to take a risk. Isn’t that what
capitalism is all about.
In the last 10 years, since the Dow topped out, think of some of the fabulous
ideas, businesses and fortunes that have been made and changed all of our lives.
1. Blogs, like Barry Ritholz’s.
2. Google, then google purchasing a map company, Youtube, and now maybe Yelp.
3. Facebook.
4. The fortunes made in athletics—maybe a bit too much but that is self-correcting now.
5. A new national health plan….not the greatest burt a start.
6. The IPhone…amazing, to me at least.
7. We did in fact survive Enron, Tyco and the real estate crisis.
8. The fortunes made by many of us which allow us to retire with as much money as we
will ever need and still able to help our kids, grandkids, and many other people and
institutions.
9. add your own to this list……..
You all believe that great changes happen with a flip of a coin. Come on.
Only football games begin with that coin toss.
December 20th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
zzzzmd – love the thoughts and insight – I don’t know much about healthcare but your explanation of some of the deeper issues resonates with me. I think I agree with you in terms of paying for the fat smokers health care tab, but here’s my little contention though. So I should not be responsible for people that do things to themselves to make their healthcare cost rise – smoking, eating, drinking, drugs, but where exactly do we draw the line in terms of things that we impose on ourselves. Food, I’ll give you, but not everyone will, and how about if a IV needle user gets HIV, did they do that to themselves? Still probably yes, but not intentionally.
Then how about things that aren’t people’s fault? I got a cousin that has sistic phybrosis (spelling) born with it, not his fault, but assuming his care is real expensive, why should I have to pay for that. I’m healthy, maybe we should DNA test people and find out who is predisposed to what, and if they have a chance of getting some serious disease make them pay more for health insurance. Sounds like a slippery slope to Brave New World.
@hpinRaleigh – That Bond idea is simply silly and frankly a little freighting. Rationalizing abortion from an economic perspective and not taking into account the human element of this delicate issue is like trying to explain beauty in scientific terms – you really just can’t. If it’s really just all economic lets put the abortion age cap up to the age when someone can live on their own. Not meaning viability but sustainability – find food, shelter and the likem six? Maybe? If before then their is an economical change in the parents situation they can abort their 5 year old. Under your purely economical “Rationale” this would fly. You can’t use the same lenses to understand all issues.
December 20th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
TD, I merely started philosophical discussion, and the slippery slope concept is always used to paint broad strokes of why we shouldn’t do something.
Society determines all these things.
Smokers already pay more for insurance, why not the obese?
Bad drivers pay more for car isurance. Buy your luxury home on the beach, you pay flood insurance, you made a choice.
I am merely suggesting a rational approach.
we went down the slippery slope in Iraq, now afgahanastan. what is the real terrorist risk?
How many shoes have to come off at the airport?, what a waste
Alchohol, Cigarrettes, and obesity kill boatloads more than Al quida can ever hope to kill!
As far as you cousin, thats what true health care is supposed to take care, and insurance is for
The unforseen, randome events that happen in life.
Like life insurance, car insurance, etc.
Its just time for some level heads to emerge.
December 20th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
We impose things upon ourselves all the time. Speeding tickets, laws, etc, all for the good of the many.
Smokers already pay more for health insurance, and we should tax cigarettes higher. No one “intentionally” gets fat, HIV etc.
Insurance was designed to protect us against the unexpected high expense. Car, life, home insurance all do this .We all pay into the insurance pool (one way or another )to help those with unexpected catastrophic expenses. We can define this any way we like. I am merely suggesting that the equations be changed. We are all in it together. Why should an alcoholic, even if reformed, get a liver transplant ahead of a mother with primary billiary cirrhosis, Why should a guy in prison for life get renal transplant?
Why should an 80 year old get dialysis? (They don’t in England)
I am sorry for your cousin, but a good insurance system is designed to take care of our less fortunate. You can make the slippery slope argument for anything. Life is a slippery slope.
Alcohol, Guns in America, cigarettes, bad drivers, unsafe work conditions, pollution, hospital infections and mistakes, have killed more in this country then all the terrorist in the world could ever hope to. We are afraid of the wrong demons!
December 20th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
White House Backs Health Care Deal, Sees Victory
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE5B83ZG20091220?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&u
I hate this Eurospasmodic bill. Americans already have pre-existing conditions, why do we need more rules and more laws telling us what not to do or do about them?
Where there’s victory, there must be defeat. And one thing that has been unfairly stigmatized by the Obama administration and their craven socialist cadres in the left-wing Congress and big media (you know, those large, publicly-traded corporations whose agenda is to socialize, nationalize and de-masculinize America.)
Pre-exisiting conditions are OK in my book. I side with the GOP for pre-existing conditions (including pregnancy of the unborn.)
December 20th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
“…We all pay into the insurance pool (one way or another )to help those with unexpected catastrophic expenses. We can define this any way we like. I am merely suggesting that the equations be changed. We are all in it together. Why should an alcoholic, even if reformed, get a liver transplant ahead of a mother with primary billiary cirrhosis, Why should a guy in prison for life get renal transplant?
Why should an 80 year old get dialysis? (They don’t in England)
I am sorry for your cousin, but a good insurance system is designed to take care of our less fortunate. You can make the slippery slope argument for anything. Life is a slippery slope…”-ZZZZMD, above
~”…hospital infections and mistakes, prescription drugs(taken in accordance with Label directions, Alcohol, cigarettes, bad drivers, unsafe work conditions, pollution, have killed more in this country then all the terrorist in the world could ever hope to. We are afraid of the wrong demons!” from above, w/edits
x2
We are afraid of the wrong demons.
December 20th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
@zzzzmd – Thanks again for the strong analysis. I’m not really disagreeing with you just throwing some thoughts out there. I think most Americans see the system as broken, but just not sure how to fix it. Although I would argue more nurture than nature in terms of obesity (until at least they find the “must eat twinkie” gene)
I respectfully say that you may be a little confused on the slippery slope part. What I meant by slippery slope is where do you draw the line, for what reason, and by who? Not really sure how foreign policy plays a role, other than many conservatives supported Iraq, and you perceive my argument as conservative so you attack that issue. I think drawing lines as to whom should be covered by state mandated health insurance and what countries to invade in the name of defeating “terrorists,” are dissimilar. I may find myself agreeing with you that the prison guy shouldn’t get a liver over the mother of three but I just see this rationality failing to consider what would go into a policy decision of this nature: 1. Who makes the decisions that some lives are more valuable than others? on what basis was this decisions made? What about close calls?
“Smokers already pay more for insurance, why not the obese?” – why not those with disabilites, why not those with a chance of a having a genetic condition, why not those WHOSE OFFSPRING could have a genetic condition, why not those who have a family history of drugs and alchool?
Thats what I meant by slippery slope.
If insurance is meant to take care of those less fortunate then you need to define less fortunate, b/c that fat obese man rolling down the street on his scooter smoking a cigarette is less fortunate than most.
But I agree, something needs to change to make the system more efficient, I’m just petrified of the government making choices on what lives are more valuable than others, who is covered for what, and how much people should be paying.
December 20th, 2009 at 6:19 pm
T, I did not even think about you being conservative or liberal. I am merely pointing out that society has always drawn lines. I am quite liberal myself, and the argument of …
“why not those with disabilities, why not those with a chance of a having a genetic condition, why not those WHOSE OFFSPRING could have a genetic condition, why not those who have a family history of drugs and alcohol?
Is what makes us, I would hope, a benevolent society. I knew what you meant.
As for “If insurance is meant to take care of those less fortunate then you need to define less fortunate, b/c that fat obese man rolling down the street on his scooter smoking a cigarette is less fortunate than most. He made the choice ( and statistics and demographics will tell he/she is still many, many)… the old lady he ran over, because he went through the red light is the one who is less fortunate.
Rational choices that can be sustained on healthcare, the military, energy, etc, are sorely lacking in this country. Most leaders seem make decisions based on next week or the next election, not years ahead. Look, I am child of the 60′s and 70′s, partied with the best of them, but I always new, study first, spend within your means, then party as hard as you like, leave home only with the money you could spend, get home safe. Just a little discipline can go a long way
It’s time for us to acknowledge that there are limitations, and someone with power always makes a choice. That the government scares you more than Citibank or aig, or Enron, or Maddoff, or anyone else, is beyond my comprehension. The private sector can screw you just as well as the government.
It’s the lack of information that leads to fear, and we do not get it (good information)from anywhere it seems.
Except this website I think….
Oh, and the decision about rationing (That’s what it is, and America, deal with it!) healthcare, should be made by physicians, nurses, and ethicists in the field, not corporations, government, or business.
all lives are not equal, look who we send off to war! The Hyopocrisy should be clear (its the poor!)
December 20th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
I am all for a single payer system as long as the payer is YOU!
December 21st, 2009 at 8:21 am
@ZZZZZMD
In these discussions, everyone always points the finger at someone else. Doctors also share part of the responsibility for high costs. The Fee for Service Model has been shown all over the world to be inconsistent with cost efficiency because physicians can charge what they want. This is only exascerbated in the US by the impact of potential malpractise litigation on the behaviour of physicians.
I’m sure you will dispute this. But I have many friends in the US who are medical specialists. And not a single one of them is not a multi-millionaire. So something is going well?
The surest way to get doctors wound up is to propose SOP’s for clinical practise, together with formularium standards and regulated fees for standard procedures. All of which I would advocate.
December 21st, 2009 at 8:30 am
Oh, and incidentally there are obese folks and (Even more than in the US) smokers in Europe, so the counter-arguement against the comparative GNP issue is intellectually unsound. The fact remains that the US spends 18% of GDP on healthcare, whereas the rest of the developed world spends half or less that amount and has better outcomes. AND, only 80% of the US populations is covered, so it actually understates the GDP spend.
Why is that?
December 21st, 2009 at 8:57 am
If you would like to get pissed off at Obama, read Matt Taibbi ‘s December 9Th Rolling Stone Article, “Obama’s Big Sellout”. Taibbi For President 2012!
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/31234647/obamas_big_sellout
The best thing happening in our once great nation is the fourth estate. Journalism and it’s offshoots in the blogosphere (big cheer to Mr. Rithholtz) are the only bastion left where there is the semblance of truth and a hope for a better tomorrow.
Hey, Curmudgeon – I spend most of the year in a wonderful village by the ocean in southern Spain. The quality of life here is high and the cost of living is low. I was born and raised in NYC. I visit the U.S. regularly but after spending most of my time in Europe over the last 5 years I don’t think I would ever want to live there full time. Here is a link to a cheesy tourist video on my town:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arCeZkBhePM
IMO: All people should have reasonable access to complete health care coverage. They have it in France and Spain. I am not even in their health care system and I am covered because I am here. I pay 106 Euros per month for private insurance to cover my wife and myself. When I go to the doctors here they don’t even want to take my health care insurance card because it is free for everyone else and they don’t want to bother with filling out the form. Health care is that inexpensive. In Spain the average doctor salary is 34,000 Euros a year. A prescription for an antibiotic that I had filled in NYC which cost 185 dollars I had the same prescription filled here in Spain cost 4.31 Euros. Americans have been swindled by the Pharmaceutical, insurance, and health-care system. There is going to be a revolution at some point in the future. Americans will not take being kicked around forever. Americans will wake up and when they do there will be hell to pay.
Lastly, thanks to everyone for the interesting, informative and educational postings. I really feel my life has been enriched by following THE BIG PICTURE and it’s community.
December 21st, 2009 at 9:00 am
ok I’m gonna chime in (again) on this .. who to cover – who not to cover – who is moochin – who is paying the tab .. in a human support system other than this one – just support all who support with their efforts and all those who can’t support themselves
the slippery slope:
the lost hikers at Mt Hood, the BalloonDad, the Iraqies from Sadam .. who is picking up the tab for search and rescue missions for them …. the latest gun battles on the street or the bank heists .. who is picking up the tab for investigation, prosecution and incarceration for those items
the point I’m attempting to make is .. those alive individuals all contribute to the bottom of the diamond just by being alive .. consuming items bought at going market prices and if kept alive will continue to consume .. those items like cigarettes, creme filled donuts, BK burgers, climbing ropes, mylar & kids clothes .. even guns & vaults ….
I read (past-tense) on a thread maybe this one above …. me thinks we are chasing the wrong gobblins to fight
December 21st, 2009 at 9:14 am
arthur – nice place .. like the music … fyi – the 5thE* is us in here and the 4thE doesn’t like it**
*and T-parties
** the computer chip may be a 5thE – bringing about all this turmoil to various Es … how nature make change – suckem in – twist and shout – spit em out
ps to self – rememeber to have bull-horn in hang-glidder to yell “Wave your on candid camera”