Red Tape: Goverment Employees
By Barry Ritholtz - June 15th, 2010, 2:45PM
Here is today’s random digital info-p0rn: US Government Employees:
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Pretty random, huh?
via Princeton
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Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.
June 15th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
All this complexity keeps people “busy”, if not “productive”. That’s for sure.
June 15th, 2010 at 3:06 pm
Parkinson’s Law – : Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion. Some European countries like Greece and others have a much higher proportion of public sector employees.
June 15th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
After looking at this chart, I can see why the Heartland does not consider the Pentagon a government bureaucracy, since they’re not listed here as federal employees.
June 15th, 2010 at 3:18 pm
A little context might be nice.
2,690,238 federal employees out of which over 70% work for just 7 departments:
829,538 work for the Postal Service
230,074 work for the Department of the Army
222,747 work for Department of Veterans Affairs
183,465 work for the Department of the Navy
168,811 work for the Department of the Treasury
151,664 work for the Department of the Air Force
129,319 work for the Department of Justice
1,915,618
June 15th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Ya, we have too many government workers as it is…Gulf spill…Banking crisis…McDonalds’ toxic glasses…Contaminated Chinese drywall…
June 15th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
@Franklin411
We have government workers responsible for overseeing all of those things … no matter how large a number you multiply zero by, the result is still zero.
Although, perhaps if we not only sent the perps to prison, but also sent the regulators who didn’t along with them, we might see some improvement in effectiveness …
June 15th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
Then think about how you would feel if you live in Denmark (where I come from) . Denmark has about 18% public sector employees, producing nothing, just shuffling around money and people.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
zitidiamond: Good catch.
Actually, 1% is about right (historically — in Medieval times and persisting up until Jefferson’s writings on government — the “hundred” was a basic unit of government).
http://historymedren.about.com/od/hterms/g/hundred.htm
What might surprise the “small government/state sovereignty” crowd is the number of people employed by state and local governments (in which there’s usually not as much interest — apparently, in the media age, all politics is national).
1,774,000 Federal government civilian employees, excluding Post Office (at odds w/BR’s chart, but counts Post Office workers separately).
615,000 Post Office
1,172,913 Military enlisted
230,577 Military Officers
2,424,000 State government (excluding education and hospitals)
5,594,000 Local government (excluding education and hospitals)
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_americans_are_government_employed
I hope some of these irrational, pseudo-conservative, secessionist imbeciles get their wish.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
What would be even more fascinating is the Total Payroll, benefits and other perkies those millions of people gross and net, and how they in turn ripple and multiply out into the economy.
Productivity on the other hand is another facet and that would likely make a statue cry.
@ThomasSoerensen
Unless there is some magician on earth that can ‘manufacture’ jobs the way Hershey’s manufactures candy bars and Toyota, cars and trucks, many more millions and billions will be kept busy producing nothing of value that anyone would want buy or add to their respective economys. They will be net obstacles to progress, or progress will be redefined to include those functions that PREVENT efficiencies. The majority of workers already digging holes that are re-filled by others. Eventually the hole fillers will be interfered with by the government workers to slow down their filling. Taking in each others’ laundry is the economy of the now and the future.
This world desperately needs billions of real jobs, good-paying ones that do not consume more than they produce, as government jobs do.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
constantnormal:
The result is not zero if the laws and regulations are enforced. This, more than anything else, is the great Bush legacy — incompetence in the personnel and disfunction in the structure/mission of the bureaucracy (used to be, our government could get big things done, and get them done right).
Interesting that you bring up jail. There are currently 2,424,279 +- prisoners incarcerated in the US. we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, yet the big criminals are in charge.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:33 pm
flipspiceland Says:
“. . . millions and billions will be kept busy producing nothing of value that anyone would want buy or add to their respective economys. They will be net obstacles to progress, or progress will be redefined to include those functions that PREVENT efficiencies. The majority of workers already digging holes that are re-filled by others.”
______________
No one is picking up trash. We could employ millions of people, for years, to pick up trash in this country, and pay them a reasonable wage to do it, and there would be a positive, measurable, valuable benefit in doing so. Cost prohibitive? well, it might be expensive, but the alternative is ghastly, poisonous, and vile. The cost of effectively dealing with the waste stream of our society should be reflected in the price of goods at the register (I don’t give a shit who remits the tax — the manufacturer, the retailer, or the consumer). I don’t know how much you get out, or where, but I have been deep in the woods, far off the beaten path and found plenty of trash from god knows what immediate source, but the name of the business is usually on the trash (old McDonald’s styrofoam BigMac containers, for instance).
ThomasSoerensen:
Is Denmark a shithole, or do you folks pick up your trash?
June 15th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Office of Government Ethics (otherwise know as Orwell’s Ministry of Truth) 2,889 loyal, lying, amoral reptiles.
These doublethink specialists earn every penny. It must be hard to think up new lies that sound like truth on a regular basis.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Why didn’t the employees of the 19 banks get counted? How ’bout BP’s US employees and all the workers laid-off as a result of the ban on offshore drilling instituted after the spill that the Obama Administration has demanded BP pay? How ’bout the construction companies that owe their existence to housing policy largesse, from subsidized interest rates to tax credits available to their customers? And don’t forget, as MA noted, the state and local workers, and please don’t exclude the teachers, or at least don’t exclude the 100,000 of them that Obama has promised a $100 billion of federal largesse in order to save their jobs. What about virtually all of the health care industry?
It would be easier math to show a chart of true private sector workers. Fast food, grocery and techie workers, and some retail and manufacturing is about all that stands in support of the massive leviathan that is government, at all levels.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:41 pm
To also put this in context, the number of Federal workers is down historically, compared to the 1980′s. Federal employment peaked in the final years of Reagan/first year of Bush I, at 3,114,000. Source: http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=228
State and local government keeps on growing, however.
I also wonder why we haven’t heard any proposals for government workers taking a small paycut, as they have in some European countries (I’m thinking of Spain, where government workers were forced to take a 5% paycut). Lots of us in the private sector have had to take a paycut, and it would be great PR, if nothing else. It might also save significant dollars.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:48 pm
the thread is pointing out a vast # not reported by poster Dow .. and beyond (what I have seen to this point) .. where would our economy be without the reinvestment of taxes into a private sector company job and enterprise .. how many people owe they’re livelyhood to – say the MIC or a road project
“real jobs, good-paying ones that do not consume more than they produce, as government jobs do” .. flip .. I’m sure we see the world differently .. when I see or hear that statement .. I say there’s someone who sees government taking all the good jobs from some private business in some industry (that’s not MIC, space-race or roads)
“real jobs, good-paying ones that do not consume more than they produce, as” pushing paper in a paper-race “as” wall street does and court room squabbles
June 15th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
on the chart .. dig it .. I had a conversation earlier on how I’m not cut out for the RedTape world .. I couldn’t handle a gov job .. would wanna be king and that ain’t gov … the guns in the layout DIG IT – thats where we would be without GOV … my beef was sour – take me to court – oh ya – bangbang
June 15th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
Don’t forget to add the 15 million state and local government employees. And God knows how many “private” contractors make their bread and butter primarily from taxes and deficit spending.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Curmudgeon:
BP should be hung out to dry as a lesson to those left standing (same goes for the auto makers, the banks, and every other business doing business on outside the regulations). While the investigation is still ongoing, there’s enough evidence floating around to safely say that BP took a gamble with the lives and lifestyles of thousands upon thousands of people, as well as risking a vital US national and global resource, in search of greater profits with which to feather their beds, and they lost. Fuck ’em. Fuck the shareholders, too — they all knew, or should have known, the risks going in.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:05 pm
WHow come Goldman Sachs isn’t included? How about Halliburton, Boeing, Blackwater, Rockwell, Bechtel, etc? How long would any of these leeches last without the federal tit to suck on?
What percentage of government funds go to pay direct employees versus Military Industrial Complex socialism for the rich leeches?
Does a hedge fund manager 15% tax on capital gains qualify as a federal subsidy for all that “wise allocation of capital” ?
Are hedge fund managers federal employees/socialists too? (Only in case of massive losses. They practice selective capitalism; they keep the profits, the federal government keeps the losses)
And while we’re at it, Buffett has a salary of $100,000 a year. He has capital gains that dwarf his salary. Okay, he just had lunch auction whereby somebody paid over $1,000,000 to eat with Buffett. Is that a business lunch? Was it donated to charity or was it capital gains?
In a sane world I would say it was a consultation which would be defined as EARNED INCOME, not capital gains.
So what’s my point? The people of the USA are being robbed blind daily and talk of extravagant federal expenditures on employees who make peanuts and really do work HARD for a living (the exception is not the rule), as opposed to most CEOs and hedge fund mangers, just gives red meat to the “kill social security , medicare and drown government in a bathtub” fascists that would destroy thiscountry for a quick buck.
The federal government bloat is a pimple compared to the MIC Mount Everest size theft.
I busted my ass for 20 years as an air traffic controller, did not strike in 1981, had my engine sabotaged and the union workers at courtesy Ford “forgot” to take an oil sample so my home owners insurance didn’t cover the $1200 overhaul whil I was working 6o hours a week. I ate the $1200 bucks and helped recover the system. Nobody owes me anything for what I did but I’ll be God Damned if I’ll sit still while ANYONE trashes most federal employees. This is bullshit!
June 15th, 2010 at 5:11 pm
The chart has ZERO perspective. The reality is that the MIC is gargantuan in the their thievery compared to the peanuts that federal government employees make. This is disingenuous propaganda.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:20 pm
The salary data on the left is from 2001.
Are these department counts from 2001 also? If so, they are probably wildly inaccurate.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:27 pm
@ Curmudgeon,
You are exactly right. I wrote a long rant and it was blocked.
It would be interesting and informative if all those federal employee salaries were readjusted to a 15% tax rate. How much more in taxes are these folks paying than the capital gains bimbos? And how about the reverse situation where the tax tables on earned income applied to all compensation and perks including capital gains? How much money is not going to the government?
But that would be too obvious, I guess. Let’s just cling to the “wise allocation of capital” and “efficient market” myths so we can justify our capital (robbery) gains.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
@ Marcus said there are currently 2,424,279 +- prisoners incarcerated in the US. we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, yet the big criminals are in charge.
And the reason the criminals are in charge, while having multiple causes, includes the high incarceration rate. Someone should include the prisoners as federal employees. I’m sure the average salary for all federal employees would then reach an “acceptable” level for the Peterson types of about $2 an hour.
June 15th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Speaking of the Federal Government, here’s an interesting bit of ass covering (for titanic profits) the Bush boys did:
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/sec-government-destroyed-documents-regarding-pre-911-put-options
You see, the government can be quite efficient and effective when it wants to “get things done” for its’ friends.
June 15th, 2010 at 6:37 pm
People, you’re being distracted from the real total cost of Federal employment costs.
For every 1 FED in government, there are at least 2-4 CONTRACTORS working beside them. One estimate I heard in conversation with a high-level gov’t source is that there are probably 6-7 million contractors on the Federal payroll, albeit through contracts to Beltway Bandits like Grumman or Boeing.
Federal employment is nowhere near 2.7 million. Count the contractors and you’re nearing 10 million Feds.
June 15th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
mannwich, define productive, if you please.
June 15th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
Two points:
1. if we want to preerly account for the drag the government places on the economy we should also count the local/ state government employees and contractors. The number of employees looks smaller than in 1980s but what about contrctors, there is probably another 2 million of them.
2. The % should be calculated against the total US workforce, not US population.
June 15th, 2010 at 8:23 pm
Interesting that the average astronomer is paid about 20% more than the average economist, who is in turn is paid only about 1% more than the average podiatrist.
June 15th, 2010 at 9:20 pm
Nice Chart…but where’s the Context? And, what was left out?
Without perspective it’s just “Chart Porn” ….interesting to look at…but how it’s perceived is in the eye of the beholder’s agenda or ignorance.
I will claim ignorance that it shows anything except “clutter.” Fascinating as it is…just to look at.
I’d give it a “shrug”….?????
June 15th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
http://www.usps.com/financials/_pdf/annual_report_2009.pdf
Don’t know where that 829,538 number comes from, but the USPS says it has 623,128 employees. They deliver 177 billion pieces of mail to over 150 million addresses 6 times a week. No tax dollars support it, they generate their own revenue by actually providing a service . Does Education educate? Does Energy produce energy? Does Agriculture grow crops? These departments have little or no reason to exist. The few useful parts, such as agricultural inspectors, could be put in Dept. of Health (hmmm, do they make us healthy?).
I’d like to see UPS and FEDEX deliver that much mail every year for the price. You can’t even hardly find a physical address for them in most phone books in American cities, let alone get them to deliver mail to grandma in Podunk. If they got private contracts to deliver mail, they would cherry-pick the best cities/routes for profitability, and leave the other 90% of us in the cold.
June 16th, 2010 at 2:02 am
was tossing and turning over my 2 successive posts where in the 1st I rant on about paper-pushing accounters and paper-pushing lawmakers and lawyers .. the 2nd post I rail on what we would be without them (well 1/2 of them)
maybe its the creating law and line item codes that are un-enforceable that is wrong headed … maybe its attempting to force a condition on people that is un-enforceable
.. except with a gun or death .. litigation and internment is so wasteful generally
brings to mind a song I’ll track down for ya from the cloud computing music world:
“Right Now” by Chris Gaines aka Garth Brooks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7fM_jAmpWw
June 16th, 2010 at 6:43 am
Do state and local workers not count as government? When you add those, you get to the lovely number of 23m
June 16th, 2010 at 8:05 am
Lots of good comments here, esp Curmudgeon, AGG, Capitolist.
AGG, understand where you’re coming from…if you could see what I see in the DoD, regarding “consultants” that do little but “regurgitate what’s already known ” with fancy power points, and federal contractors with astronomical salaries, you’d be even sicker.
AGG is on-target with “People, you’re being distracted from the real total cost of Federal employment”
…..Federal employees ARE NOT as big an issue as you are being lead to believe…they are a VERY SMALL portion of the FEDERAL budget. Take a closer look at the cost of contractors and weapons that support the “war on terror” …that’s where you want to focus.
June 16th, 2010 at 10:37 am
Interesting, but salary data from 2001…The government should hire a few more people so that we can get more current data, say from 2003.
June 16th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Patent office is self funding. Apples/oranges…