US Ranks Last in Health Care vs AUS, CAN, GER, NETH, NZ, UK
This continues to be fascinating:
“The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world, but comparative analyses consistently show the United States underperforms relative to other countries on most dimensions of performance. Among the seven nations studied—Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States—the U.S. ranks last overall, as it did in the 2007, 2006, and 2004. Most troubling, the U.S. fails to achieve better health outcomes than the other countries, and as shown in the earlier editions, the U.S. is last on dimensions of access, patient safety, coordination, efficiency, and equity. The Netherlands ranks first, followed closely by the U.K. and Australia.”
At least the US soccer team had a good world cup run . . .
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click for larger graphic
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Hat tip: Stick with a Nose
Sources:
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: How the Performance of the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally
Karen Davis, Ph.D., Cathy Schoen, M.S., and Kristof Stremikis, M.P.P.
Commonwealth fund, June 23, 2010 <br>http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/Fund-Reports/2010/Jun/Mirror-Mirror-Update.aspx
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall (PDF)
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June 27th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
I’m willing to bet we rank #1 in healthcare industry profits and costs to the consumer. Who needs health when you can give some healthcare non-practitioner your money?
Is this a great country,or what?
June 27th, 2010 at 12:28 pm
US per capita cost $7290
Average difference between the US and the other countries $3354
It is possible to pay for health care for two people with the difference in spending per capita. More than enough to cover all of our people who do not have insurance.
June 27th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
Remember, what is never said, is that this describes the ENTIRE population,as mean.
For wealthy individuals,and those with insurance, it is still the best.
Why do many of our best Hospitals have so many wealthy people come here from all over the world to have thier care?
There are international wings in many of our best hospitals.
Why is that?
Our best care is the best!
Its our average that is worse than many other countries averages.
I’m just sayin………
June 27th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
Consider the Source:
The Commonwealth Fund is currently led by president Karen Davis, a nationally recognized economist, with an extensive background in public policy and research.
Before joining the Fund, she served as chairman of the Department of Health Policy and Management at the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, where she also held an appointment as professor of economics. She served as deputy assistant secretary for health policy in the Department of Health and Human Services from 1977–1980, under the *Carter* administration, and was the first woman to head a U.S. Public Health Service agency. Prior to her government career, Ms. Davis was a senior fellow at the* Brookings Institution* in Washington, D.C., a visiting lecturer at Harvard University, and an assistant professor of economics at Rice University. A native of Oklahoma, she received her Ph.D. in economics from Rice University.
————————————
I agree in principal that the current healthcare system is ‘broken’ in the US…but largely a result of allowing the Insurance industry regulatory capture and favorable laws extended to them by CONGRESS…why else would Warren Buffet buy all in?
But…no…all we can see to get ourselves extricated from the mire is to extend the Fed’s power over what is left of the private economy (how’s that working for you!?)….to the man with a hammer…everything is a nail….
June 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
As noted in an earlier discussion:
I spent 30 years all over the world in the healthcare business and, yes, the US system is broken. The US spends 17% of GDP on healthcare compared to half that amount in other developed countries, yet with worse outcomes as a national average. My 10 cents worth as follows:
1.Insurance Companies must be forced to function as the risk pools they were intended to be. No patient should be excluded on the basis of a pre-existing condition. There needs to be more competition. Can anyone provide one good reason why health insurers cannot operate over state lines?
2.The “Fee for service” model has been synonymous with out of control costs all over the world. Physicians (Nice folks but they ARE part of the problem) and hospitals have no constraints on what tests, procedures etc that they conduct and charge for. Remember that medicine is not truly a “Free” market in the normal sense because most folks know little about medicine and will simply accept the word of the physician on trust without “Shopping around” as for other goods and services. This is particularly true when “Someone else is paying”.
3.Compounding the above, physicians use the latest and most expensive tests, procedures and medicines because, if they do not and there are any, even minor, problems they will be up for malpractise. This encourages a conservative and very costly type of medicine. And the cost of Malpractise Insurance can amount to hundreds of thousands of dollars pa, depending on the specialty. Many times, simple approaches (If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck……..) are just as effective and a lot less expensive. There are now very few “Must have” blockbuster drugs and simple generic medicines are often just as effective and frequently much safer. Tort reform, therefore, is an important part of the solution.
4.The MNC drug Companies make about 80% of TOTAL profits from the US market alone. Why do drugs in Canada cost so much less than the US? Re-importation of US manufactured goods from Canada should be permitted (Until the supply chain in Canada miraculously starts to run out of stock?) OR there should be effective purchasing mechanisms in the US through which prices can be truly negotiated with drug Companies ON BEHALF OF END-USERS and not have the savings creamed off by a middleman rent-seeker.
Obamacare doesn’t address these fundamental issues driving costs and so, because it will bring more folks into a system without cost controls, will push healthcare costs as a % of GDP even higher, towards 21% of GDP.
It’s entirely analagous to the debate on Financial reforms. The vested interests of the healthcare players and their lobbyists will prevail.
What a sad country.
June 27th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
I must disagree that our health care system is the best. For the very wealthy it may be, as they have the means to pay for what they need, wasteful or not. For the rest who are insured, we are at the mercy of the insurance companies who do everything they can to NOT pay claims.
Blue Cross of Illinois has the highest rate is rescission in the nation. Many people who were paying their premiums every month and thought they had insurance have found out that their policies were rescinded only after years of payments when they have a claim for an expensive disease, such as cancer.
I have found that the only people who crow about our fabulous health care system are people who seldom have a need to use it.
June 27th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Saying our health system is the best in the world because the really rich can pay for the most advanced procedures is the 21st century’s equivalent of “Let them eat cake.”
June 27th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
philipat @ 12:49
“Insurance Companies must be forced to function as the risk pools they were intended to be. No patient should be excluded on the basis of a pre-existing condition”.
I assume that you favor a system in which people are allowed to wait until they get sick (or injured) before buying insurance, and then to stop paying their premiums once the treatment has run its course. Are there any insurance companies that would willingly participate?
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Regarding pharmaceutical company profits, if we as a country are willing to accept a slower pace of drug discovery, then price controls would make sense, provided that the public fully understood the choice that is being made.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
So the GOP claims that Americans like to spend more on health care than anyone else, oh and we have the best system…
…but they also we don’t need to spend so much on education, oh and we have the worst system.
Well? Which is it?
I wonder if voters would react (change their emotional party affiliation) if you could line up all of the GOP’s hypocritical stances on simplistic manner in which they frame their arguments? Ex…
Spill, Baby, Spill! How the Left Can Win the PR War
http://www.ostroyreport.com/
June 27th, 2010 at 2:00 pm
We’re Number 1!!!…in cost.
The amount of money we are talking about is staggering. No discussion of deficit and debt is complete without mentioning this simple statistic. We spend $7,290 per person, the Netherlands spends 3,837 per person. There are about 309 million people in the U.S. If we spent the same as the Netherlands we would save $1.067 TRILLION per year! If we adapted aone of the many systems that have worked in other countries we could quickly eleiminate the deficit. Even if we could save half this much, it would completely change the countries fiscal future and we could get better health care.
The question that should be at the forefront of discussions of the debt should be– “how long can we afford to let our broken system of private insurance companies bankrupt the country?”
June 27th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
ask your selves this
does every person deserve a 3000 sq ft home, or reasonable shelter
does every person deserve a range rover, or basic transportation
does every person deserve a Harvard education, or an adequate one though high school or community college
does every person deserve 4 weeks’ vacation a year or 2
does every person deserve steak and sushi every day, or healthy basic food
does every person deserve the best of everything?
does every person deserve to take care of themselves, not smoke, drink, or eat to excess?
does every person deserve to sue if the outcome is less than perfect?
does every insurance company have the right to such obscene profits?
If you answered yes to most of the above, then you think total access to all healthcare is a right, not a privilege
at least you would not be a hypocrite
June 27th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
zzzzmd @ 2:12
I believe that the profit margin of most health insurance companies in the U.S. is about 3-4%.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
pre-existing conditions- that’s ridiculous-
insurance companies should accept somebody right out of the gate that’s going to cost them millions in claims-
I sure hope I can find a car insurance company that will let me get coverage after I wreck my car- maybe that’s the new business model- sounds like a winner-
I mean- really- why get coverage until you need it?
. . .and yeah VD- the GOP sucks- glad you always offer that same view time after time after time after time after time . . .
not like a broken record or anything
June 27th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
RT @waltisfrozen: The US may have lost, but we’re still willing to gut education and welfare to preserve our military empire. Suck on that, rest of the world
June 27th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Along with much of what philipat said, the key is to move to a consumer led system. We need everyone to get their own personal policy that moves with them, rather than a group plan. We should be able to select plans across state lines, and all plans should have a high deductible with an HSA account. Until the consumer has skin in the game directly where they are writing a check for service, we won’t see costs drop. I have an HSA with a $5,000 deductible. I challenge doctor recommendations all the time when they call for x-rays or ultrasounds. I call several doctors for price quotes, and I am much more focused on preventative health measures.
Also, we do need to alter the drug company practice of earning most of their $ from US citizens. If we negotiate better prices, we will start to see prices in Canada, France, etc. rise as ours falls. The little blue pill should cost the same regardless of where it is purchased.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Hospitals get paid via DRG which means they are given one fee which includes all tests. As for no constraints, you are kidding, right? Every doctor’s office has one person in his office sitting all day on terminal hold trying to get a procedure approved with private insurance. Sure, Medicare allows more freedom, but that is on Congress not doctors. They make the rules not doctors.
I also love it when people like you Phillpat come out and always blame one set of health care workers, doctors, for everything. Why are PAs, NPs, LVNs, PTs, OTs, CRNAs, RNs, and LVNs not part of the problem? I guess all those health care workers labor for free. You are repeating a stale script.
The reality is that doctors just had to hold their breath with a scheduled a 21% pay cut from Medicare. Obama blamed Republicans for the holdup. It turns out the Dems not the Republicans were the problem.
“After months of debate and political wrangling, the House of Representatives, in a 417–1 vote, approved the $6.4 billion bill Thursday evening. The Senate had approved the 6-month reprieve in a voice vote on June 18.
Obama agreed with leaders of organized medicine that the last-minute temporary fix does not solve the perennial problem physicians face. The planned cut to physicians’ payments “would have forced some doctors to stop seeing Medicare patients — an outcome we can all agree is unacceptable,”
If you want to know what the “debate” was about given the 417 to 1 results, it was that the Dems were trying to tack on other spending bills to the no-brainer of not cutting doctor’s fees. But just wait six months, and Obama and the Dems will play the same show again.
It is not like doctors are not willing to sacrifice if others are, but tell me, what federal government employee has a 21% pay cut hanging over their head in six months? The reality is that doctors pay has been going down while federal employees has been going up. Medicare is paying less than private insurance, and it is not like private insurance is loose with money.
On top of that, Medicare held all doctor’s payments until Congress got its act together. Tell me: what set of government employees would put up with having their pay held waiting on Congress? Do you think Congressional aides put up with this nonsense?
And now we have Obamacare. Yep, our beloved president studied the whole health care landscape. It was not drug companies, insurance companies, lab companies, malpractice, or the horrific red tape that was the problem. Nope, it was the consumer. Obama pointed his finger at the consumer and said, “You guys aren’t paying enough.” and then in a brazen act of cowardice decided to enact his costly plan to take place in 2014, two years after the 2012 election.
Anybody who cannot see that government is the problem with health care just hasn’t been paying attention to what has been going on over the last two years.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
DL,
w/this: “Regarding pharmaceutical company profits, if we as a country are willing to accept a slower pace of drug discovery, then price controls would make sense, provided that the public fully understood the choice that is being made.” oft-heard, widely repeated “Fraud-a”-cuetical Industrial Complex talking point..
you’re a bright boy, could you give us some background on the recent ‘Breakthrough’-Miracle serums brought, to us, by those guys?
and, maybe, while we’re at it, We can figure out why they, on average, spend more on Advertising than they do on R&D?
to say nothing of the Fact that most of the R&D costs are, actually, born by publically funded Research Institutions & Universities..
~~
if We were, actually, concerned about escaping this, Health Care/Medicine, broken system, philipat, above, stakes out, with Torches aflame, the Entrance to the Right Path..
but, notes, all too realistically, “…Obamacare doesn’t address these fundamental issues driving costs and so, because it will bring more folks into a system without cost controls, will push healthcare costs as a % of GDP even higher, towards 21% of GDP.
It’s entirely analagous to the debate on Financial reforms. The vested interests of the healthcare players and their lobbyists will prevail.
What a sad country…”
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/realistically
But, at the EOD, I’ll guess it’s easier to believe that ‘our Representatives’ are ‘too Stoopid/Incompetent’ to “figure it out”..
w/that, the Good News is.. Rite-Aid has “Instant Smile” on Sale, + a Mfg.s Rebate..
http://www.rod-serling.com/seas5b.html see Episode 12
June 27th, 2010 at 2:46 pm
The whole idea of pre-existing conditions is meaningless if you have universal coverage. As noted above if you get rid of pre-existing conditions, then you also have to mandate that everyone has coverage. If everyone has to have coverage then there is no reason to have private insurance companies.
Private insurance companies skim a large portion of all health expenditures off the top, through profits and CEO salaries, the costs of all the salaries of insurance companies, and probably most importantly, all the costs of administrative assistants in doctor’s offices and hospitals required to wade through excessive amounts of paperwork.
The only possible justification for having private companies is that they will lower costs by somehow being more efficient than government insurance thus making up for their costs. As the chart above makes clear they do not fulfill this function. We spend twice as much as other countries for lower quality results. In practice, private insurance companies actually save money by not covering sick people and dropping coverage for healthy people when they get sick. All these costs are transferred to the government and 45,000 people die every year because they don’t have health insurance. If we conclude that we want universal coverage, then the health insurance paperwork becomes almost trivial.
June 27th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
jz,
take a peek at http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=the+AMA+is+a+supply+constraining+Cartel
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=History+of+the+AMA+Cartel
~~
and, one for good measure(of bad medicine)..
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Prescription+Drugs+taken+as+directed+leading+cause+of+Death
June 27th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
We’ (US residents) have been paying for a Cadillac, and were getting a Yugo in return.
After Obama, we’ll ba paying for a Cadillac-and-a-half, and getting in return a Yugo.
June 27th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
Incredible fact that most people do not know:
Except for Canada, every other country on the list spends less than half of what USA spends per capita (and after Sara Palin’s admission that her family used to go to Canada to get health care, I guess those “illegal” yanks are the reason why Canadian system isn’t less expensive yet.)
June 27th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
MEH @ 2:44
I do happen to know a thing or two about basic biological and chemical R&D that goes on at universities, and other government-funded agencies. Yes, many, if not most, of the “breakthroughs” in basic research that have occurred were the result of government funding. And it probably is true that the big pharma companies spend more on marketing than on research.
At the same time, however, many of the “breakthrough” drugs cost $500M to $1B (or more) to develop. (There are, of course, many “me too” drugs). And then there’s always litigation costs to be concerned about as well.
The government cannot (and should not) dictate to the pharma companies how much to spend on R&D versus marketing. The bottom line is, if we adopt government policies that reduce pharma company profit margins, we can expect less money to flow into R&D. But as I wrote in my earlier post, if the public is willing to pay that price, then so be it, as long as they understand the tradeoff.
June 27th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
1. 3rd party payment system. Get the service provider (doctor) and the end user (patient) together again to set prices for services
2. AMA… Hey, how about we make some more doctors? There are plenty of really bright people who can’t get into med school simply because of supply constraints.
3. Tort reform.
4. HSAs
5. Electronic records, etc. We’re geting there… Slowly.
June 27th, 2010 at 4:07 pm
The study itself appears to have been crafted to support the authors’ conclusions, i.e., that the US would improve its health care system by adopting universal health care.
As I see it, the problem with the study is the data (how they got it, is it reliable and/or valid?, does it really represent these comparative health care systems?) For example, does it make sense for dental care to have an impact on the overall equity of a nation’s health care?
And look at the methodology.
The data was collected in telephone survey of 11,910 adults in 2007, 8,742 sicker adults in 2008, and 6,750 primary care physicians in 2009. Of that, 2,500 adults, 1,200 sicker adults, and 1,000-1,500 primary care physicians were located in the U.S. With sample sizes so small, all it takes is a few thousand respondents to skew the results. Seriously, about 5,000 people answering survey questions (that appear to leaning toward universal care) is the basis for measuring 74 indicators of quality of health care.
In that light, the study’s conclusions have to be looked at with at least some skepticism and not merely repeated or used to support one’s political leanings.
June 27th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
DL,
this http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Big+Pharma+spends+more+on+Advertising+than+R%26D , just, as a 2x-check..
and, of course, this: “The government cannot (and should not) dictate to the pharma companies how much to spend on R&D versus marketing…” is, no doubt, True.
LSS: We should be aware, yet again, of what happens to Prices in ‘Markets’– controlled by Cartels and, other, Oligopolies–that are funded by ‘third-Party’ Payors (OPM)… they _________ sky-rocket..
the ‘parabolic’-Nature of the HC Cost growth begins to evince itself, surprise, around the same Time that Medi-Care/-Caid were whelped ..
there’s a Chart (1960-), about half-way down here http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/universal.htm
June 27th, 2010 at 4:34 pm
Could we please see a comparison of the incomes of plaintiff’s attorneys in America, Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the UK?
June 27th, 2010 at 4:40 pm
The real question is why there are for profit insurance companies at all? Just citing their profit margins is disingenuous and a red herring.
The real apples to apples comparison is for profit insurance companies vs. Medicare cost of delivering care.
Medicare’s overhead is in the 3-4% region
Private Insurance company’s overhead are in the 20-40% range depending upon where the company is located and whom they serve.
Let’s compare overhead between US and Canada.
$412 vs. $77
OVER HEAD is the real cost between the health care systems. Merely using the profit margins of health insurance companies as proof that they aren’t robbing us all blind ignores the rest of the costs associated with delivering health care and is a bogus pro-health care insurance argument meant to obfuscate the real cost of health care delivery in this country.
June 27th, 2010 at 5:12 pm
DSS hit one of the nails on the head
add to that the cost of the physicians/hospitals/pharmacists cost to employ all the people who fill out all the forms, make all the phone calls etc just to get paid.
The TRANSACTION costs are enormous, with 0 return.
Marketing costs are also a real waste of time and money.
When I started, it was considered “dirty” for a doctor or hospital to advertise. Only the shysters and shamans did that.
and no patient depended on a commercial to tell the Dr. what to do or perscribe.
We depended on research, journals, and 8-12 post college years of training.
You think Robotic Prostate Surgery is an advance in anything? (just one example of thousands
June 27th, 2010 at 5:45 pm
John Rawls, the moral philosopher, proposed the “veil of ignorance” as a means to test the morality of a societal issue. Imagine you will be introduced into the society, but are ignorant of what your position in that society will be.
Which society would you rather be introduced into if you were ignorant of your position in that society: the US, where health care is very expensive, the wealthy get excellent health care, the majority of people get poor health care (as per the numbers cited above), and those at the economic bottom do not have access to health care; or a society where basic and affordable health care (with better overall outcomes than the US) is guaranteed for all?
This numbers cited above are the “elephant in the room” in the health care debate. I don’t understand why the majority of people in this country aren’t up in arms about our “broken” health care system.
June 27th, 2010 at 5:47 pm
@ philipat June 27th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
“Re-importation of US manufactured goods from Canada should be permitted (Until the supply chain in Canada miraculously starts to run out of stock?) ”
Why only Canada? Why not allow importation of drugs from the EU?
Within the EU “paralelll import” works great, is highly regulated and reduces cost significantly for the citizens.
June 27th, 2010 at 6:14 pm
Well, since all those countries legislated themselves cheap drugs off our backs (who do you think ends up paying the freight when the Canadians pass a law making the drugs cheaper for them?), I am not surprised.
In addition, since the Euros are notorious for their loose standards in reporting causes of death, particularly from cancer, it’s a little tough to take these stats too seriously.
Finally, what the hell does long healthy productive life mean? Let’s talk non-violent CoD’s and average life spans for people who don’t sling rock in D.C. Want a horse shit result to a study to further your agenda? Start with horse shit questions. What the hell does “equity” mean? Some welfare queen with a drug habit gets the same treatment in the hospital as me? Well, hell. I’ll shoot for a “7″ on that any day.
You know, this thing reminds me of the “study” the French came out with that said they were more productive with a 4-day week, which they proceeded to try and use to convince us to jump off the same cliff. Now, a couple crises later, and they’re moving back to 5 days, pushing up retirement age. Wow, what happened?
In short, you can B.S. with idiotic “studies” for only so long.
June 27th, 2010 at 6:27 pm
The real question is why there are for profit insurance companies at all?
exactly-
insurance companies blow- I hope they get rid of State Farm too- take out that middle man so my car insurance rates are real low-
in fact- why profit at all- for any industry- let’s reduce all these middle men- think how much more inexpensive the things we buy will become-
now that would be nirvana-
I can’t wait
June 27th, 2010 at 6:30 pm
I’d like to see some of the disbelievers come up with some studies disproving the notion that US health care is overpriced and only mediocre when compared to other countries such as these 7.
You can chant USA USA USA all you want, but seriously — how about some data?
June 27th, 2010 at 6:36 pm
DSS hit one of the nails on the head
add to that the cost of the physicians/hospitals/pharmacists cost to employ all the people who fill out all the forms, make all the phone calls etc just to get paid.
The TRANSACTION costs are enormous, with 0 return.
of course- better to pay taxes for all these services- that way it doesn’t cost anything-
the government I guess doesn’t need to fill out paperwork or forms- or make phone calls- the government has always been less paper intensive than the private sector-
laugh the fuck out loud!
June 27th, 2010 at 7:16 pm
hey BR-
I use to work for the IRS busting tax dodgers- about as government as you can get-
walls and walls of forms- not the IRS forms needed to file a return – but enforcement forms- beyond anyone’s comprehension that hasn’t seen it for themselves-
so no one can tell me about the “efficiencies” of the United States government-
secondly this whole health care debate bores me-
in the end- the question is- are you being covered? should I worry about every person? in the United States- or every person on the planet? Do I need the government to protect me- provide for me? or can I fend for myself?
where do we draw that line?
but I would like to add that we should feed all the hungry children- and make sure all pets are spade and neutered ( because pets are cool and our property to comfort and amuse us) and be kind to each and every one-
what a perfect world it could be
June 27th, 2010 at 7:22 pm
The potential savings from instituting a European system (which give better outcomes) are $1 trillion dollars each year. Given that extraordinary number, it seems to me that the onus is on the opposition to explain why the current system is $1 trillion dollars a year better. The fact that single-payer was never uttered during the entire health-care debate tells you how broken our political system is.
The main question is how much free-market we want to have in our health-care system. The U.S. has by far the most free-market system and it is clearly overpriced and under-performing. All other developed countries have some combination of government run health-care, government run insurance, or very highly regulated private insurance. They all pay much less and many get better results than the U.S.
The left wants single-payer and points to the many successful models in other countries. The right says we need more free-market competition in health care. There are no successful models of this, and I think the idea that people will somehow use WebMD to find the most cost-effective treatment for their brain tumor or shop around before calling an ambulance to be pure free-market fantasy. The Obama plan was to keep our broken system but add a few regulations and throw a lot of money at it.
June 27th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Hey Ahab,
If this health care debates bores you so much, why are you posting comment after comment? Your comments are so scintillating as well and they add so much to the debate.
What a perfect world it would be if some folks would STFU.
June 27th, 2010 at 7:40 pm
Your comments are so scintillating as well and they add so much to the debate.
thank you-
I thought so-
thanks for adding to the discussion- glad you’re a fan(-:!!!
June 27th, 2010 at 7:53 pm
no one adressed my first post
and for you Barry, with all due respect, what is a fair price for lets say, coronary artery bypass surgery, 4 grafts,
a 6 hour operation, 6 day stay…..
a remodeled kitchen is 100k
a really nice car 100k
even the transmision on your car if needs fixing 4k
how much should it cost for a 20 year trained l surgeon, anesthesiologist, 4 nurses, 2 days in intensive care, intensivist, is the average cost of 60k to much?, or should we just put you on drugs, and five years later when you ventricular function is worse, you will be ok with that because its cheaper.
I know you will be at cornell/columbia/nyu etc. etc. why is that?
Even the beloved Canadians come down here when they are REALLY sick for the heart surgery so they do not have to wait 6 months to year.
And by the way, the death rate will be the same, so the rocket scientist accountants will call it equivilant
Jeese, you guys should stick to finance
June 27th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
and for you Barry, with all due respect, what is a fair price for lets say, coronary artery bypass surgery, 4 grafts, a 6 hour operation, 6 day stay….
ZERO- because it’s all FREE- because it’s paid by taxes-
laugh the fuck out fucking loud
June 27th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
I knew you would approve!
June 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
yes ahab,
we have a hospital for you, youc an pay 0
Bellevue, Jackson, Grady, any city hospital, a VA, if you had the balls to serve
you will get what you pay for….
and it aint 0, because you pay taxes, or do you?
and you pay health isurance, or do you?
and you apy deductible, out of network, out of pocket, and so on
careful what you wish for!
June 27th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
Hah – Ahab, are you makin’ friends again? :-)
June 27th, 2010 at 8:38 pm
See Manqiw’s blog. It’s demographics and diet. I would be interested in the per capita fast food joints in the Netherlands if anybody has that stat.
I agree that if you are out of a job COBRA is expensive but health care is just another form of compensation for all of you economists out there. You get free healthcare and your CEO will put the savings in his bonus – we already know how executive compensation works – HA.
$14 trillion economy – health care is 17% so $2.5 trillion to health care and most estimates are that insurance admin is 30% of that or $750 million. Cut out the insurance companies (good luck finding them new jobs), have some tort reform and educate the regulators. You Wall Street guys gotta agree that the regulators don’t know much about securitization. Same applies for medicine. Those that can do and those that can’t regulate.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
“and for you Barry, with all due respect, what is a fair price for lets say, coronary artery bypass surgery, 4 grafts, a 6 hour operation, 6 day stay….”
A more relevant question is “how many health insurance executives it takes to perform coronary artery bypass surgery. The entire point of the table is that other countries do the same job or better at half the cost.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:48 pm
I’d like to see some of the disbelievers come up with some studies disproving the notion that US health care is overpriced and only mediocre when compared to other countries such as these 7.
—
Didn’t you actually read the study, Barry, and check out its methodology, data and assumptions?
I’ve no doubt our health care system is badly in need of some health care itself. However, there are many questions that could be posted when comparing ours to others. For example, we are one of the most overweight nations in the world, with something like two thirds of country falling into this category, and a full one third falling into the obese category. One consequence of this are higher rates of heart disease, diabetes, and other diseases associated with poor diets and too much food. One other consequence: higher health care costs compared to other nations because of the need to treat these diseases. So what’s the culprit in this instance: the health care system or our diets?
If your study above addresses this issue, I’d like to see it.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
@ zzzzmd, I don’t think anybody is denying that the US has some of the best specialists in the world. Few people will need a specialist until they reach retirement. A health care system is about treating populations, not individuals (personilized medicine is VERY limited). Many parts of the world focus’ on prevention, unfortunately the US lacks this focus in many ways and the lifestyle contributes to this in many ways (compare BMI of american to Japanese). Sadly there is a focus on specialization (where the money is) and insufficient supply of general practicioner. Creating an open marker for producing doctors would improve the situation. Cuba has almost three times as many physicians as the US (primarily focusing on prevention) and as a result the life expectancy of a Cuban is the same as an american at 1/10th the cost.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:51 pm
“and for you Barry, with all due respect, what is a fair price for lets say, coronary artery bypass surgery, 4 grafts, a 6 hour operation, 6 day stay….”
A more relevant question is ‘how many health insurance executives it takes to perform coronary artery bypass surgery.’ The entire point of the table is that other countries do the same job or better at half the cost.
June 27th, 2010 at 8:59 pm
@ James,
US healthcare cost has been MUCH higher than the rest of the world for many decades. Possibly due to the lack of focus on disease prevention. I fear that the costs will continue to diverge. Ageing population is another considerations. Americans have a lower life expectancy than most western European contries. It is well established that an ageing population contributes significantly to costs. It is possible that life style diseases will decrease the life expectancy of the average american.
June 27th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
Looking at the healthcare system and employment.
Small businesses could do with universal healthcare, in order to compete with government and corporate jobs, an even playing field would be nice, smaller companies could pay more and/or hire more.
Concurrence is dead as far as benefits are concerned, it is no surprise pharmaceuticals, corporations and insurance companies control the field.
Put a cap on drugs prices and give basic universal coverage to every citizen, optional insurance could be purchased privately (dental…).
Right now, healthcare is a business, what ever happened to the word care in healthcare?
And zzzzmd,
Nobody answered your first post because it stinks of nationalistic bullshit and all the rest of your republican shite that has done nothing but destroy this country.
You and your ever lasting greatness while we are knee deep in the shit, go fuck yourself.
June 27th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
Geez. Cut our healthcare costs to levels comparable to the other countries?
Over one trillion dollars cut from the GDP?????
You want to talk recession???? Let’s talk.
Who the hell do you think can still afford McMansions and luxury items???? Yachts??
Do we really want to impose a depression on the country????
:>)
June 27th, 2010 at 9:11 pm
The US healthcare system would be much better if giant corporations (especially drug companies and food companies didn’t own the legislators. The problem is more with government than it is with anything else.
Our government is bought off 24/7/365, to the detriment of the citizens.
June 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
The entire point of the table is that other countries do the same job or better at half the cost.
exactly- half the cost-
assuming you can get in in time to actually live-
always best to have the government tell you when your appointment is
June 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
The entire point of the table is that other countries do the same job or better at half the cost.
exactly- half the cost-
assuming you can get in in time to actually live-
always best to have the government tell you when your appointment is
June 27th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
The entire point of the table is that other countries do the same job or better at half the cost.
exactly- half the cost-
assuming you can get in in time to actually live-
always best to have the government tell you when your appointment is
June 27th, 2010 at 9:19 pm
wow-
that post was so cool it posted not once, not twice but THREE times-
awesome
June 27th, 2010 at 10:10 pm
@call me ahab,
Exactly: ” assuming you can get in in time to actually live-”
That’s a great point, it’s always sad when I travel to Japan or Canada or Europe and see all those people just keeling over walking down the street. They have such horrible life expectancies compared to US!
…oh wait, they live longer than the average american? WTF?
June 27th, 2010 at 10:11 pm
I wonder what the malpractice insurance premiums look like in each of those 6 other countries?
June 27th, 2010 at 10:25 pm
So THAT explains why everyone is rushing to Canada and the UK for their healthcare.
Yeah, I trust the methodology. No, really, I do. Right.
June 27th, 2010 at 10:33 pm
having lived in both Germany and Netherlands for a long time, I can say Yes they do have a good system which is fairly efficient and cover most needs of everybody.
Having lived in Canada as well, I can say that other than propaganda, Canadian healthcare is a complete joke, impossible to find a family doctor to start with, there are public clinics where you can go on a first come first served basis for a general doctor only, (you will endure long waitting hours, but is still ok), however if you want to see a specialist, good luck, you might have to wait from 6 to 9 month and more (it took me 7 months to get a CT scan done!).
I dont know how the US system works, but I surely hope they dont get inspired by their northern neighbours.
June 27th, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Obesity rates:
30.6% US
23% UK
21.9% Australia
20.9% New Zealand
14.3% Canada
12.9% Germany
9.4% France
10% Netherlands
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity
The US rates are higher now (five year old data), and the percentage of our population over-weight – not just obese – today almost certainly places head and shoulders over everyone else. As I noted above, this is almost certainly ONE factor in our higher costs . . .
Incidentally, Barry, we JUST concluded a knock down, drag out fight over health care that resulted in legislation that will supposedly cure our health care system of its ills if the administration and others are to be believed . . . so is the debate now moot?
Personally, I think not. But it’s not clear where you’re coming from (and the point of the post) . . .
June 27th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
The Commonwealth Fund!? Talk about pimping the party line. The only shocking part about their reports is that we are not the worst in the world about everything. Oh wait they have said that.
Here’s an article that at least tackles their some of their ongoing bogus conclusions. Of course you all won’t read it, but hey who gives a shit, its only other peoples money you are gleefully spending.
http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/230340/commonwealth-fund-rags-u-s-health-care/avik-roy
Anyone that supports a bill that the Speaker of the House says we have to pass to find out what’s in it needs their head examined. How’s that Tarp treating you. Oh wait, not you, your kids.
June 27th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
I lived in the UK for several years and I didn’t like their national health care system. I would have to wait, wait, wait, and the Dr. wouldn’t write me a prescription unless I ran HIGH fever; I went to a private Dr and he cured me, but it cost me a bundle; wouldn’t trade the US system for the UK’s. Now, for those on this blog who keep mentioning that somehow Universal coverage would fix everything here in the US, look at Medicare: great (I’m on medicare now) but also hopelessly BROKE. So, what’s better: a broken system such as the US private insurance run system, but solvent or a broke system such as the US Medicare. And please, stop mentioning CEO’s obscene salaries, or profits, do the math, these costs are insignificant. What’s significant is the 12 million plus illegals (some say there are 25 million illegals in the US, we just don’t know) who use our ER’s for “free” and also the many uninsured who use them too although a goodly part of them make over $60K/yr. My wife just underwent a major surgery procedure; Aetna paid 80% of a contracted amount, we paid 20% or $380, less than what we just paid for four new tires. So, I don’t bitch, I think we have a great country and if there is a nationwide will to cut costs, we’ll do it, but I don’t see the will…only the constant whining and bellyaching…
June 28th, 2010 at 12:12 am
Jame,
If obesity is really costing us $1 trillion a year, we should start getting serious about doing something about it. We could start by stopping subsidies for corn syrup. There is a problem when people eat McDonalds because they can’t afford vegetables.
This undoubtedly is very expensive, but it is only a part of the problem of the American health care system.
June 28th, 2010 at 12:32 am
“There is a problem when people eat McDonalds because they can’t afford vegetables.”
That gets my vote for most ridiculous statement of the year.
June 28th, 2010 at 12:46 am
Bigger problem may be excessive salt intake, 9 of 10 americans comsume too much salt. Most consume twice the recommended value.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65N5I320100624
June 28th, 2010 at 1:21 am
There seems to be a bit of a disconnect in the table’s data. Neth outranks Can and Aus in the majority of categories, yet the population of the former has shorter, less productive and less healthy lives than the latter two.
Does this mean?
1)) The quality of healthcare is not the pivotal factor when it comes to the length, health and
productivity of one’s life
2) The quality of healthcare is less important than proximity to the North Sea
3) Something is fishy or lacking in the researchers’ methodology
4) I am short-sighted and missing the point (neither of these would be exceptional)
June 28th, 2010 at 2:46 am
to johnnywalker Says:
bitch, bitch and bitch again, US is soooooooooooooooo bad…so why is everybody flocking to our shores if health care is bad here? But wait, we’ve just fixed the health care system here, ask Madame Pelosi and the little pink suit now in the WH, haven’t we? Now, we’ll add 30 million to the insured column and the costs will go down? really? Now we’ll be better than the Dutch? more Kool-aid please!
June 28th, 2010 at 4:47 am
Of the six countries listed, all except New Zealand reportedly have total fertility rates well below the replacement level. Peoples that minimize the expense of prenatal and pediatric care by having so few children they do not replace themselves are welcome to their long, graceful, old age, such as it is.
Moreover, the Americans suffer an adverse circumstance that seems too little appreciated, as yet. Most of the Americans live between 30 degrees and 49 degrees north of the equator and spend the great majority of their time indoors. As a result, they expose themselves to very little ultraviolet radiation from the sun during the autumn, winter, and spring, and consequently, they make too little vitamin D3. The problem is great enough for light-skinned Americans and for human beings in general who live mostly indoors anywhere that is distant from the equator. However, black Americans reportedly have an even greater problem of vitamin D3 deficiency, for their ample protection against damage by the sun’s UV radiation also leaves them especially vulnerable to deficiency of vitamin D3.
For the consequences of vitamin D3 deficiency, see the web site of the Vitamin D Council, at http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/
June 28th, 2010 at 5:00 am
hey beaufou Says,
amazing, since I am a completely the opposite of what you think. Not registered to either party.
Anti the last 3 wars, for universal health insurance to a degree.
Just pointing out the reality of all the propaganda you feed into.
I think a society should take care of its least fortunate, do you?
I am just pointing out that everything needs to be rationed to some extent.
and we certainly don’t need to spend as much on the last 6 months of life as we do
we could take that 20% and spend in on prevention, immunizations, education and the like.
As for the insurance companies, why not one form for all, one software system, one coding, and one set of rules. That would save boatloads right there
But when it’s your turn to die, I bet your in the “do everything you can camp” to keep yourself of family alive as long as possible, since life is so sacred.
Me, let me go and cremate me. No wasted money, no wasted suffering, no wasted real estate and headstone, no making anyone feel bad when they don’t visit the grave!
The Medical-industrial-political complex is no different than the Military industrial complex.
But it’s not the troops fault
Like I said
HYPOCRITE
June 28th, 2010 at 6:02 am
those health care studies incorporate survival rates driven by inner-city gang killings (more that afgan) and 70% of blacks and 50% of hispanics born out of wedlock, hiuge impact on “outcomes” but not due to our health care system. our cancer survival rates are tops ( of course, should we spend money on old and sick people? we do, others dont) and the best and latest and greatest is here, expensive.. we try artificial hearts out on desperate old people (good) and lower the cost and make it better and on and on.
June 28th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
The money quote comes at the end of the original sourced article: “In the subcategories, the U.S. ranks first on preventive care, and is strong on waiting times for specialist care and nonemergency surgical care, but weak on access to needed services and ability to obtain prompt attention from primary care physicians.”
USA scores poorly in promp attention from Primary Care Physicians, and the number of PCP’s continues to decline due to it not being a very good living (high insurance costs driven from lawsuits). Being a doctor ain’t what it used to be. That’s a Supply problem. (throw in 30,000,000 new “customers” and you compound the problem with a Demand problem). No amount of spending, “reform”, etc., will entice young people to become PCP’s. They want to be in more lucrative MD fields, or other fields altogether (computer programming, finance, wall street wizards).
As for this scorecard…don’t forget the US takes the high ground on reporting stuff like infant mortality (ie., every baby counts) whereas Europe and most WTO counties don’t count alot of babies if they are too small, too light, etc. Just one a of a few areas where the US looks worse—but the other guys are cooking their books a little bit, too. As others have said, give New Zealand our morbid obesity rates, our handguns, our smoking and drug problems, etc..and let’s see how they shake out.
And I know this ends up on a per-capita basis, but it’s gotta be easy as hell to take care of a city, er country, like Netherlands (with 16M people) or New Zealand (5M). The US has a bigger population than all of these countries put together and while you might expect effiencies of scale…well, apparently, not. Taking care of 300+M is a lot of work. Russia has 50% of our population and China and India are 4x..so let’s see how they compare…
June 28th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
The TOTAL population of all those countries put together doesn’t add up to 2/3 of that in the disUnited States.
N. Zealand with a total of 4 mm people is 1/2 the population of New York City! fer cryin’ out loud.
The comparisons that continue to be made of pissant countries with that of the United States ALWAYS fail to consider what it takes to insure 4 mm people vs 400,000,000 (and growing larger, with greater burdens put on those who pay for health insurance.
The United States will never match what a single state could do to insure it’s people. And that is where the emphasis should be. On the States or absent that, break the US up into 6 regions, then there might be some validity to comparing those regions with the widely disaparate ones listed in the table.
Otherwise these comparisons are intellectually dishonest, naive or worse.
June 28th, 2010 at 1:21 pm
I have lived in The Netherlands, the top ranked country, for 6 years. I doubt if these “researchers” have lived here for a month. Here is the reality:
1) The students who study medicine and become doctors are chosen by lottery. If a student meets or surpasses a minimum GPA in high school, they can apply to medical school directly after high school. The daughter of a friend is now waiting to see if she won this lottery.
2) In the Netherlands, there are no nurses working in any doctor’s office. The staff at each office consists of a receptionist and the doctor. Result: When your children need a vaccine, the doctor writes a prescription, you pick it up at the pharmacy and perform the injection yourself. (Been there, done that).
3) In the Netherlands, pain medication during childbirth was not generally available until Jan 2009. http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/epidural-during-childbirth-increase
4) In Dutch emergency rooms, there are several closet sized “interview rooms” that are completely empty except for two chairs. In addition to these interview rooms, each hospital has only one or two rooms with beds, proper lights, blood pressure machines, and other medical equipment in its emergency room department.
5) You do not get to choose your doctor. You must use the doctor assigned to your neighborhood.
6) Medical costs are set by the government. A visit to your neighborhood doctor costs only $15. Unfortunately, here, like the rest of the world, you get what you pay for.
7) A visit to the doctor generally goes something like this:
Doc: What’s the problem today?
Patient: It hurts here.
Doc: Come back in a week if it still hurts.
A friend of mine had a typical appointment and felt that something wasn’t right. He went to the airport and took the first flight to America and went to the nearest emergency room. It turned out he had a burst appendix. He would have been dead in a week.
Reality in France:
1) In 2003, when the temperature in France reached 100 – 104 degrees F, almost 15,000 people died. It turns out that there are no air conditioners or ice machines in French hospitals. Think about the times you or someone you know was in the hospital. How far away was the nearest ice machine? When my wife was giving birth to our two children, the ice machines were 10 feet away. When my dad was hospitalized for cancer, the ice machine was 40 feet away from his hospital room. When my dad had dialysis, the ice machine was 10 feet away from the dialysis machine. Think about an entire country with no ice machines in any of the hospitals. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/10267/france_heat_wave_death_toll_at_15000/
What about Canadian Health care?
Here’s an email from a friend in Calgary:
FYI, After 4 weeks with a pinched nerve in a lumbar disk and still having loss of function down to my foot the doctors have agreed I need an MRI to take the next step and reformulate the treatment strategy before I end up with permanent loss of function. Thanks to government run health care in Canada I only have to wait 5 months to get an MRI. Yes, that’s right I said 5 months. I immediately went to the internet and found a private company offering MRI’s here in Calgary and for $800 I got my appointment in 3 days. Socialized medicine 5 months – private medicine 3 days and $800. Gee, which one should I chose?
Fact: Many Canadians want to eliminate the private option because “it isn’t fair to those on government health care.” The private option is illegal in 6 of Canada’s 10 provinces: http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/164/6/825
June 28th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
to adamsvictor
It’s not bitching when you cite the numbers; they are what they are. To those of you who want to condemn the stats based on the source, look a little deeper. Other sources cite similar statistics. There are measurable disparities in health care outcomes among different countries, just as there are disparities among different groups within this country. We can argue over the causes of the disparities, but we can’t deny that they exist.
I cite John Rawls to make this point: to the extent that government influences health care, should it promote a system that guarantees disparities, or work toward a more equitable system?
A metaphor just came to me. The US economy (public and private) spends enough to provide everyone with a BMW; the measurable outcomes suggest that on average what we’re getting is a YUGO.
June 28th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
C’mon BR, facts don’t matter. Don’t you get it? Government is always bad. The invisible biceps is always right. I thought we settled this during WWII. Don’t complicate things. Is this a communist blog?
June 28th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
I have been in one of the better U.S. hospitals – Memorial Herman in Houston. Warehoused for 14 hours in ER, physician in charge even tried to discharge me without care. It turned out that the type of X-ray machine I needed was broken, and until the head of the department took a look at me, he did not want to simply transfer me to another department in the same hospital, which had the equipment. I have insurance, so the crappy care can be attributed only to the hospital or physician. My experience with the primary care physicians is similar. Maybe the very best care for the elites is the best in the world. But the insurance provided by a major US corporations buys exactly what the article says. 7th rank overall, and in most individual categories. That is not to say that you can not get worse care in developing world, but for the money we spend we certainly should do better.
June 29th, 2010 at 3:25 am
That “our system is broken” is of course patent rhetorical horseshit. I am reminded of the remark about democracy being the worst system, except by comparison with the others…. the obvious question is “broken compared to what”? Moribund European models that even braindead eurosocialists admit are unsustainable? Commonwealth is an obama shill organization and I say, once again, no one produces a graph in social “science” without first a point of view. Their policy papers are insufficiently absorbent to be put to their most practical use. To the extent that our own system is unsustainable (and it is) it is caused by bufoonish govt policy and an absence of markets. I won’t say that anyone who says different is a fool. I will say that relying on “data” to decide questions which are essentially moral is a fools game.
June 29th, 2010 at 5:24 am
The US Health Care System is badly broken, except for the top say 10% of wealthy people.
1. Costs are completely out of control. (This will change or the whole system will become a disaster)
2). Hospitals do not follow basic sanitation procedures. Personal observation supported by the 90,000 or so deaths reported by the Center for Disease Control from preventable hospital induced infections. For example washing hands between patient visits, are you kidding me. It isn’t done.
3) Doctors get paid as piece workers. The more surgery they do the more they make. In the last five years I’ve had two doctors want to do major surgery on me.
- One time I went to MAYO (part of the system for the wealthy). They discouraged surgery as un-necessary and having little benefits. Results five years later no surgery (estimated cost savings of $75,000) and I’m super glad I didn’t let the local doctors cut.
-Recently a podiatrists (in the first five minutes of my first visit pre-xray, pre any tests) tell me I had to have a new toe joint to help me deal with the pain and because I couldn’t walk correctly. The doctor hadn’t seen me walk, and the pain wasn’t forcing me under the knife. So much BS it didn’t make any sense. No surgery for him, I’m doing well and on my way (say 90%) to a full recovery without the very expensive surgery.
4) Drugs in this country cost roughly double what they cost in Europe and Canada. Why because the governments of those rational countries don’t let the pharma companies charge what they want. The US subsidizes the health care for the world. Suckers we are.
Just as a side note, there is also a huge business as reported in Forbes of US citizens going to foreign countries to have medical procedure done because of cost. Reportedly the out comes are just as good if not better than what is done in the US.
July 1st, 2010 at 7:27 pm
@zzzzmd:
I have to totally disagree with “zzzmd’s” comments in this thread. Dude, you sould like an elitist libertarian. I posted in your comments immediately below. You are just making crap up. “USA is the best” you say? Well, according to your opinion. You are another American who is in denial about the crappy healthcare system your country has, which is an embarassment. I’ve lived in USA, Europe and Canada, and there is no question from my own direct experience that USA was the worst–especially dealing with dishonest, money-hungry insurance companies who fight tooth and nail over every claim, every penny. Dude, you are full of baloney, your hollow claims fall on deaf ears for those with experience dealing with the crap U.S. system.
“So many wealthy people come here” blah blah blah. WTF? You only reinforce the studies findings. For you, if the USA can provide the global jetset luxury medical care in exclusive private hospitals the USA is doing fine and there’s no problem. For you, if poor Iraq War vets are forgotten and get shit medical care, or no care, there is no problem–since rich folks can fly to USA from abroad and have a hip replacement then fly home.
Zzzzmd: you are a good excample of how America has changed for the worst: from your comments you could care less for your fellow Americans, you clearly only care about rich people. You are clearly lacking in any civic or civil awareness or decency. Just awful. Keep posting your rubbish remarks, which only further reinforce this studies findings: that America’s healthcare system is a wreck, a corporate rip-off which only caters to the rich.
Remember, what is never said, is that this describes the ENTIRE population,as mean.
For wealthy individuals,and those with insurance, it is still the best.
Why do many of our best Hospitals have so many wealthy people come here from all over the world to have thier care?
There are international wings in many of our best hospitals.
Why is that?
Our best care is the best!
Its our average that is worse than many other countries averages.
I’m just sayin………
July 1st, 2010 at 7:38 pm
@zzzmd again:
“there are international wings in many of our hospitals” you say. Well, fancy that. Have you ever been abroad, zzzzmd? Do you even have a passport? Probably not (since in your mind America is #1, the best, etc). Newsflash for you: Americans fly abroad for all types of medical care! Yes, sorry to break the news to you. In Prague, Czech Republic there is a booming “medical tourism” business, and yep–most of the customers come from USA, because even with the cost of the air ticket the top notch medical care received by Americans in Prague is so much more cheaper and hassle free than battling the health insurance companies in USA. Same goes for Mexico, tons of Americans head south of the border for more affordable healthcare.
Either you don’t know about this, or don’t like to bring it up as it exposes how farcical and naive your arguments are in this thread.
“Our best care is the best”: spoken like a true, jingoistic American. I’m sure for you there is no need to ever travel abroad and see another country, since “America is the best” in every conceivable way, and the rest of the world should fall in line behind USA…blah blah blah. Get so tired of this arrogant mentality by americans. Sheesh give it a rest.