“Torture didn’t provide useful, meaningful, trustworthy information”
Today’s quote of the day is my attempt to thwart a wrongheaded meme. It is terror variant of the CRA argument.
Did torture help find OBL? From the CIA:
“Torture [at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp] didn’t provide useful, meaningful, trustworthy information. Everyone [at the CIA] was deeply concerned and most felt it was un-American and did not work.”
-Glenn L. Carle, a retired C.I.A. officer who oversaw the interrogation of a high-level detainee in 2002
What about a torture derived smoking gun? From the NSA:
“The bottom line is this: If we had some kind of smoking-gun intelligence from waterboarding in 2003, we would have taken out Osama bin Laden in 2003. It took years of collection and analysis from many different sources to develop the case that enabled us to identify this compound, and reach a judgment that Bin Laden was likely to be living there.”
-Tommy Vietor, spokesman for the National Security Council.
Are you telling me that waterboarding someone 5 or 10 times is not going to get any good info out of them?
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times — repeatedly misled interrogators about the courier’s identity.
Why does getting this right matter? Why is it so important to deal with reality and not some ideology not based on real information, data, and human behavior?
Creating a false premise as to a cause or major factor in a societal event ultimately leads to the wrong policy decisions being made on the basis of bad information.
Thinking that torture is wrong is not a liberal or conservative value — it is an American value.
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May 5th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
The problem is with those who believe that torture is not wrong.
May 5th, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Those people should be tortured until they see the light . . .
May 5th, 2011 at 8:13 pm
And is also prohibited under the Geneva Conventions, which have developed over decades of warfare for a very good reason, and served the allies well in WW2. The Far Right needs to understand that should the US trash the Geneva Conventions, it works both ways, so don’t start bleating when captured US personnel get treated the same way.
May 5th, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Also, wrt “American values”, whilst not wishing to accept uncritically ANYTHING I am told by ANY Government, on this occasion, even Al-Qaeda accepts that OBL is dead. SO it seems to me that the folks who demand to see the pictures of him dead are driven by some sadistic/morbid motivation, which I personally find dsitressing. After a lefong career in Medical and Healthcare field, I can assure them the sight of a human being shot in the head at close quarters by a high velocity weapon is not a pretty sight. It’s mostly the Far Right again, of course, FAUX News in particular.
May 5th, 2011 at 8:27 pm
The Birthers have been replaced by the Deathers
May 5th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
I agree that at one level this is an issue of moral values, including American values.
But the central point here is something else — what’s effective. Torture is not. The arguments about it do not have to get to the abstract moral level. Stay down on what works, and torture still loses.
May 5th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Another area which I am a little disappointed w/ our president. I’m disappointed not because he is “radical islamo-socialist,black nationalist, Kenyan”(a moronic narrative) but because he has not been nearly FORCEFUL ENOUGH IN HIS DEPARTURE FROM BUSH2. If Obama were not a neutered centrist, he would use the chance to clearly and firmly denounce torture!
May 5th, 2011 at 8:58 pm
QOTD:
Obviousness is always the enemy of correctness. —Bertrand Russell,
Mathematics and Metaphysicians+
http://www.amazon.com/Impact-Science-Society-Bertrand-Russell/dp/0404054668
May 5th, 2011 at 9:00 pm
Oops, meant to include this: http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/04/did-torture-get-the-us-osama-bin-laden/
May 5th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
I’m with you on this one BR., but I am concerned that too many will conclude after catching and killing OBL that torture was the right path. Here is some more reading on this one if yo are interested:
http://oppugno.com/blog/2011/05/03/lack-of-support-for-the-pro-torture-narrative/
May 5th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
“Thinking that torture is wrong is not a liberal or conservative value — it is an American value.”
Amen.
May 5th, 2011 at 9:33 pm
The Christian Science Monitor has an article on Torture:
Military interrogators: Waterboarding didn’t yield tips that led to bin Laden
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2011/0505/Military-interrogators-Waterboarding-didn-t-yield-tips-that-led-to-bin-Laden
May 5th, 2011 at 10:08 pm
Torture is wrong. America does not torture. We didn’t torture KSM.
We poured some water up his nose on 3 separate occasions. If your cognitive bias says that each separate pour is a separate “torture” instance, well then, maybe you need to examine your own guilt.
May 5th, 2011 at 10:11 pm
American value?
Assassination did not used to be an American value. At least that’s what my teachers taught me.
Moving beyond that.
American value? I think someone wrote a book about trust and provided lots of anecdotal evidence about how important that was for a country’s success.
Countries succeed or fail on the basis of their social bonds and trust.
Not elitist wealth.
I guess honesty is a more fundamental value that leads to trust.
It is my hope that BSO will follow up on the partial truths with a better effort.
Not about Bin Laden. He’s history.
We need to return to the matters at hand. And get beyond the political points to be scored for re-election.
Guess the GOP gets to eat some well deserved dirt. GWB was ….. And Cheney was ….
But now they are both history. Time to move on.
May 5th, 2011 at 10:15 pm
Trying to figure out what this has to do with capital markets, economy, technology, or digital media.
fail.
~~~
BR: You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that I am going to address the subjects you want. I write about what I want.
You should GYOFB and write about what you want to your hearts content. Just because no one will bother to read it should not prevent you from writing it
May 5th, 2011 at 10:24 pm
Amen brother.
I’d add the shameful treatment of the Wikileaks guy, and the incredible extent to which the government muscled around corporations to provide illegal wiretaps (when they weren’t happily complicit). Need to clear all of that out of our system and the sooner the better.
And I still agree also the root of all evil in American politics is fundraising/lobbying; we should have public funding or some isolating mechanism.
May 5th, 2011 at 10:35 pm
Look up in the sky! It’s Andrew Sullivan paging Captain Butthurt to the site about “capital markets and economics.” Help us Barry! SAVE THE WORLD! At least this isn’t another one of those lame attention-whore “information is beautiful” graphics.
Hey anybody else notice the Nikkei is down nearly 2% right now?
May 5th, 2011 at 10:50 pm
“Thinking that torture is wrong is not a liberal or conservative value — it is an American value. ”
Wow, brave stand BR – almost as brave as your stand on extrajudicial execution.
May 5th, 2011 at 11:08 pm
The Nikkei was closed Monday-Thursday so is just playing catch-up.
May 5th, 2011 at 11:09 pm
Something about the OBL assassination reminds me of the old show biz joke:
“Hey, is [old celebrity] still alive?”
“Yeah, but his career died a long time ago.”
May 5th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
Sen. John McCain is against any torture tactics. He has more moral authority to weigh in on this subject than any of us, so I will go with what he says on this one.
May 5th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
@crutcher: I’m sympathetic to that criticism. Though there is, I think, a valid point that starts from the premise that OBL wasn’t a really a common criminal. At some point, the State has to draw a line in the sand. The message to terrorists – which they won’t hear but which must be sent anyway – runs like this: “If you orchestrate the death of 3000 of our citizens we will use the entirety of our awesome resources and power to find and kill you, your friends, your associates, and even family. They will all die.”
And I don’t think anyone in the intelligence community ever believed that torture would provide useful information. They knew it wouldn’t. Trained interrogators can get anyone to spill the beans once they have you in their power. Once they control you and the environment it’s really not hard.
The Gitmo torture factory was, I think, not about information.It was about psyops. Spreading fear. Creating a monster. It was about sending a message to terrorists or potential terrorist: “even if we don’t kill you, we’ll send you to a fate worse than death”. But I think that ultimately even the Bushies didn’t have the stomach for it, and neither did the military or even the CIA. Being a torturer exacts a toll, and I doubt – despite his assertions to the contrary – that Dubya isn’t just a little worried about the fate of his immortal soul. Cheney, on the other hand, has nothing to worry about. One needs a soul to worry about it’s fate.
May 5th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
I will happily torture anyone who thinks torture should be used.
Please let me know your preferred method.
May 6th, 2011 at 12:05 am
To send armed goons to your enemy’s hideout in a couple of vehicles to cap the guy then throw the body in the water is a method worthy of the Mafia, not a Country.
Karma is a bitch and justice does not suffer hypocrisy.
That this will bite us back in the arse is a matter of when not if.
~~~
BR: That is a war time operation, and I have absolutely zero problems with it
May 6th, 2011 at 12:07 am
Irwin Fletcher..John McCain not the sharpest tool in shed. Hope you can find some other tool to help you.
May 6th, 2011 at 1:33 am
[...] see this post of his on why torture is not good for gathering information. We have come so far that people have [...]
May 6th, 2011 at 2:02 am
I think it’s important to note that we’re now moving away from the “ticking time bomb” justification for torture to the “it may give us information we can use in 10 years” justification
May 6th, 2011 at 2:36 am
So, what does this have to do with Macro perspectives on Capital Markets, Economy, Technology, and Digital Media?
C’mon Man!
Stay the course…
~~~
BR: Andy T — what on earth makes you think I give a flying fuck about ANYTHING that comes out of the pie-hole in the center of your face?
You want to engage in disrespectful two-faced sniping — but expect me to care what you say?
May 6th, 2011 at 2:45 am
“Thinking that torture is wrong is not a liberal or conservative value — it is an American value.”
If your wife or child was captured by somebody…and the only way to get really good information out of a suspect/accomplice was to torture them, what would you do?
Tough question…..I know.
Mike Dukakis lost an election with that type of question in 1988.
Keep holding on to your ‘truths’ ….
~~~
BR: Its not a tough question — its a silly piece of rhetoric, revealing the questioner to be a fool. Of course, my personal code of ethics is different than what a great nations’ laws are.
What I would do personally in that situation — ripping someone’s eyes out with my bare hands so I could piss on their brains — is not the same sort of response that is appropriate by a nation.
May 6th, 2011 at 3:00 am
First of all, let’s decide if America and Americans should torture. If your answer is yes, well, humanity thanks you for leaving and requests you take your genes with you.
If waterboarding is not torture, then the US needs to formally apologize to Japan and the families of the officers we executed after WWII.
If waterboarding, simulated execution, simulated shocks, sleep deprivation, beating, isolation, and sexual assault of the victim and family members are not torture, then we should use these techniques whenever a public, elected figure has to answer questions or when bank executives go in front of Congress.
If these are not torture, we should not be upset when our boys are treated this way.
Any man or woman in elected office or in journalism who says waterboarding is not torture or that it is permissable, should have to spend one hour being waterboarded and then declare their positions.
Va te faire foutre, America.
Barry: Do you really, really, really still believe the System is spoiled by a few bad apples? The Game is Rigged. Our leaders lie, torture, murder, bomb, rape, and invade illegally. etc. Keep dreaming, you optimist, you!
May 6th, 2011 at 4:54 am
“Thinking that torture is wrong is not a liberal or conservative value — it is an American value.”
This is deeply disconcerting. I know what you’re trying to say – but that makes it only worse. Torture is wrong, and it is a modern but essentially human value. Making it an American value diminishes it (especially since the US is the only country in which torture is accepted widely) and allows for loopholes such as “extraordinary rendition”.
May 6th, 2011 at 5:41 am
I do wish I had the spine and all the moral rectitude of most commentators here, I mean that am not being sarcastic.
A few years ago there was a case here where the 10 year old son of a wealthy industrialist was kidnapped, the kid was sick and needed medication without which he would have died and they found the kidnapper – his 22 year old male baby-sitter, who admitted but refused to reveal his location. time was running out as it turned out the kid was already dead anyhow. The police chief in charge of the investigation threatened the accused with some kind of torture, know no details, he confessed and they subsequently found the dead child. The officer was forced to resign for resorting to such methods. I really found myself at odds with that decision. What if the kid had still been alive, and could have been saved ?
Can there be shades of grey ?
May 6th, 2011 at 6:07 am
And people here think that, say, 50 years ago, some members of NYPD wouldn’t beat the shit out of somebody to get information or a confession because…
May 6th, 2011 at 6:15 am
@AndyT
“If your wife or child was captured by somebody…and the only way to get really good information out of a suspect/accomplice was to torture them, what would you do?”
Si, if your wife or child was captured by somebody..and the only way the captors could get good information out of them about you was to torture them, I assume you be OK with that? If so, then fine, your arguement works perfectly.
~~~
BR: This is not about your personal preferences in abstract hypothetical situations — this is about what we as a nation believe in, what values we adhere to.
May 6th, 2011 at 6:23 am
American isn’t what it used to be, and never was. Decency is a subjective goal and a state of mind. Once you’re convinced you’ve got it, that probably means you don’t so much. The USA has slid somewhat into a cultural dead end where many of its citizens are so full of themselves that they start thinking they define rightness and goodness– that something is right because they do it, not that they do it because it is right. I suspect it’s a well-trodden path of empires and the high-and-mighty.
May 6th, 2011 at 6:45 am
BR. British sarcasm. Yes, of course I agree with that, it’s just than many folks can only see it from one side. My earlier post regarding the Geneva conventions covered this. “If the US Far Right” wants to trash the Geneva conventions, then they need to understand that it works both ways, so don’t start bleating when US personnel get treated the same way”
And incidentally, it’s not “American values, originally imported by the Pilgrim fathers, but the moral values of all civilised peoples of the world. These Far Right types who support torture seem to forget that there are 7 Billion people in the world, 4% of which are American, but America can do what it likes because, well, it is America?
May 6th, 2011 at 6:47 am
@gd. You beat me to it!!!
May 6th, 2011 at 7:39 am
“What I would do personally in that situation — ripping someone’s eyes out with my bare hands so I could piss on their brains — is not the same sort of response that is appropriate by a nation.”
That’s damn good…
May 6th, 2011 at 8:55 am
Torture is NOT Un-American.
That is total crap.
Torture is a necessary evil. If torturing a terrorist saves the life of 1 American I vote to do it DAILY. Hell, I will even fly in and dunk the turd myself.
May 6th, 2011 at 8:57 am
Philipat….you are insane to believe the Geneva Convention is all that important. Why the hell do we abide by something our enemies do not??? It makes us weak and puts lives at risk. War is HELL. If you don’t want hell….don;t fight the damn war.
Wake up…..this truly is them against us and it is a game of survival. Do me a favor, stop making assumptions about everyone else. When it comes time to fight…I want those that will do what ever it takes fighting for me!!!!!!!
May 6th, 2011 at 9:00 am
Barry…..have fun with the blog. I just can’t be here anymore. I came here looking for insight on the Economy and trading. Although you do still tend to say on target with that, you interject too many POLITICAL stand points. The people you have here have become Sheeple following their leader. I am not saying you would not be a good leader, just not what I want out of a leader. I will check in every now and then and see if the politicss have been left outside, but for now…I am taking a much needed break for the peanut gallery you have assembled here.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:03 am
Fox’s “24″: Free Speech? Education? Incitement to Torture? PSYOP? MindWar?
The power of the media to create and destroy fundamental human values comes with great responsibility. Those who control such media are responsible for the consequences.
…
Three hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
If you’re not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.
Malcolm X
…
According to OpEd News, the Army’s Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan, dean of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, told Fox’s “24″ creative team that “24″ is popular with his students, and that they ask “If torture is wrong, what about ’24′”?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_sherwood_070224_fox_tv_series__2224_22_e.htm
Co-creator and executive producer Joel Surnow was quoted in the New Yorker:
“People in the Administration love the series, too,” he said. “It’s a patriotic show. They should love it.”
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/070219fa_fact_mayer
from .. http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2007/02/foxs-24-free-speech-education.html
May 6th, 2011 at 9:09 am
Occam’s razor, OBL was probably sold out. It was probably something much simpler than what we’re told.
The war has gone very badly for AQ; perhaps there was a schism. Maybe some Pakistani ISI official wanted to retire to London with his 21 year old mistress; perhaps the Pakistani government itself wanted to keep the US aid money flowing and wouldn’t be entirely displeased with such a betrayal. We will never really know, though.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:22 am
Where do you draw the line? Do we start torturing people in random stop and frisks? Do we torture every enemy soldier we capture just in case he knows something?
Do you believe in the American criminal justice system? Would you confess to anything, anything at all just to stop being tortured? EVERYBODY cracks under torture. Everybody. You would sell out your mother to stop them from snipping off your nipples with wire cutters or raping your six year son with a cattle prod in front of you.
The reason we have laws, rules, and nations is that people would do these things if we did not stop them. As a nation, we have to behave as we want our citizens and enemies to behave. When we don’t, we lose the essence of what brought us together in the first place.
Terrorists, indeed! When they come for you, will you cheerfully submit to waterboarding? I think not.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:40 am
@Curbyourrisk — Would you jump up and storm out of someone’s place because their ideas on complicated matters didn’t immediately jibe with your own predilections?
I get the idea that this is primarily just a place for BR to park his thoughts – not an amen corner. That’s what makes it good.
By the way, for better and for worse, politics impact *everything* and the idea that they’re tangential or taboo subject matter here is just a little myopic.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:42 am
@curbyourrisk
Hey Curby, Just when we had an opposing POV, you leave us?
“Torture is a necessary evil. If torturing a terrorist saves the life of 1 American I vote to do it DAILY. Hell, I will even fly in and dunk the turd myself.”
Can’t say that I, personally, will feel any great sense of loss over such sensitive and sophistictated prose.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:48 am
@Curbyourrisk
Quote from gd who, on this occasion, expressed my views far more eloquently:
“The USA has slid somewhat into a cultural dead end where many of its citizens are so full of themselves that they start thinking they define rightness and goodness– that something is right because they do it, not that they do it because it is right. I suspect it’s a well-trodden path of empires and the high-and-mighty.”
I couldn’t have put it better myself.
May 6th, 2011 at 9:57 am
The great thing about TBP is that, whatever the topic, I , singly or severally, can be accused of being either a Far Right Wing-Nut or an Ultra-Lefty, almost in the same thread. Which is, of course, what Freedom of Speech is TRULY all about. Except for the Trolls.
May 6th, 2011 at 10:23 am
Looks like you are being a bit selective with your quotes. Of course harsh interrogations did not provide all the information necessary to find OBL, but it looks rather pig-headed to insist that these interrogation tactics were totally useless. Carney and Former CIA Director Michael Hayden have both indicated that harsh interrogation tactics provided SOME information that was used in finding Bin Laden.
Personally, I believe torture is immoral and intrinsically evil. However, America is a utilitarian county. The ends always justify the means for the US military. Don’t believe me? Read the 10 commandments of SPECWAR, developed by the founder and first commanding officer of SEAL team 6, Richard Marcinko. Clearly, there is nothing “unamerican” about torture.
May 6th, 2011 at 10:26 am
If securitization tortures me can I torture back?
May 6th, 2011 at 10:30 am
Note that there is a significant difference between interrogation and torture, between drugs/sleep deprivation and wateriboarding.
May 6th, 2011 at 11:21 am
Best post ever! If you disagree with any thing said in this post, you need to take remedial lessons in Humanity.
Thanks Barry
May 6th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Right on, BR! I’m amazed at what some Americans will countenance in the name of “keeping America safe”.
Mancow said it was torture. Still waiting on Hannity to take his waterboarding like a man.
May 6th, 2011 at 11:57 am
Reviving the torture debate is a purely political move. The Republicans cannot, at least in this news cycle, criticize President Obama – so they attempt to divert the narrative. Re-opening the torture discussion is an effort to rehabilitate the policies of President Bush’s Administration and his image. Nothing more.
Anectdotal evidence is not data – whether Osama Bin Laden’s hiding place was discovered through “enhanced interrogation” or not (and I expect not) is irrelevant to the larger debate. One which Barry has expressed, in my view, correctly.
May 6th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
If you actually break someone with torture they will start telling you what they think will get you to stop torturing them. That is not necessarily the same as telling you the truth. The truth may be that he doesn’t know anything. But under torture he will start “revealing” a lot of stuff. So you begin polluting your “pond of knowledge” with the poison of lies. Only idiots who don’t know sh!t about interrogations and assembling information, think that torture is a good idea.
Yes some important information may have been revealed under torture, but experienced investigators could and would have gotten that information by regular methods, if these people had not been tortured. There were no “24 hour” moments with time sensitive information reveled under torture. But a lot of agents complained about sources having been destroyed because they could no trust anything said by individuals who had been broken by torture. Information about those two couriers had to be confirmed by “non-tortured” reliable sources before it could be considered reliable and actionable.
May 6th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
@curbyourrisk
“Wake up…..this truly is them against us and it is a game of survival. Do me a favor, stop making assumptions about everyone else. When it comes time to fight…I want those that will do what ever it takes fighting for me!!!!!!!”
I’m dumbfounded by this remark. Truly amazing. This is all about fear, nothing about reality. You fear “the other” and it makes you irrational. If terrorists make you think torture is okay, what do drunk drivers make you think is okay? Simple fact: drunk drivers killed 3 times as many Americans last years as terrorists of any stripe have killed in our entire history. If you find terrorism an existential threat, you must never set foot inside an automobile.
Of course, you understand completely that drunk drivers are your neighbors, friends, and family and are pretty much just like you, whereas all terrorists are nothing at all like you. That’s some twisted thinking.
May 6th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the most important target who was tortured. In hindsight it turns out that about 25% of the information he gave was good, the rest was not.
All people in a hostile interrogation will tell you more lie than truths. When you get information from a non-tortured individual you can use their demeanor movement of eyes, hands, body, etc. to get a pretty accurate idea of when the person lie and when they are not. So your info in that case after you sort out the lies is about 80% accurate. When you torture, all information given has “lie signatures” so you either reject it all or accept it all knowing that there is a low probability that any given piece of information is correct (in the case of SKM 25% chance of accuracy). That is why the professionals got outraged when they learned that Cheney and his band of idiots had tortured SKM.
The “good cop, bad cop” routine is a different story, and can be highly effective. But that is always calibrated to the individual at hand, and stays far away from letting the bad cop terrorize the subject. Because the good cop has to build trust you can’t have the individual terrorized.
May 6th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
tough subject. heard an interview with alan derschowitz on this yesterday in which he basically sided with you, but maintained that in order to keep the moral high ground on this, we must also be willing to understand that it comes at a cost, namely that we expose ourselves to increased risk of attack (he believes, as do i, that we have acquired info that we would normally been able to attain). we are already perceived by much of the rest of the world as unilateral warmonger cowboys (whether rightly or wrongly). so our national decision on this is comprised of two parts: 1. do we do the right thing, damn the consequences to our safety? and 2. will our decision really have any bearing on what the world already thinks of us? obviously question number one is more important, at the end of the day. the problem with question number two is that there is no moral parity here. if we stop torturing, i highly doubt that they will stop beheading people like daniel pearl. the muslim brotherhood is currently upset at the treatment of OBL’s remains, and yet i don’t think that they had the same concern for the victims of 9-11. they never found 40% of the wtc casualties. they are somewhere in a trashheap on staten island.
May 6th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIDTAw0zkIg
May 6th, 2011 at 6:29 pm
@BR: You obviously like to explain your ideal concepts of the brain’s irrationality.
So in support of that, here are a few comments to help you rationalize your thought processes.
You are at your core, which you like to advertise, a Hebrew. An eye for an eye. Israel fights mightily every day and violently for its continued existence. But it was never created by a democratic vote.
Not exactly an enlightened contemporary view, but one that persists, especially in the conservative thinking. “put them in jail or kill them” as opposed to allow them to blossom in a caring and challenging environment. As in a peace making process.
We are supposed to be encouraging democracy in the MEA. I think not.
It’s about power and control.
Torture was indeed a stupid idea as we tried to practice it.
But that does not mean we had to torture OSB. All we had to do was confiscate all his intelligence and parade him around the city square a few times.
And expose him to the original “American” system of justice.
Guess we know all about that now.
May 6th, 2011 at 11:51 pm
Even considering how much I would loathe the tawdry machinations involved in the prosecution and conviction of OBL. I still think that is the only way to properly deal with the reality of the crime. A jury of his peers, rights to cross examine his accusers, the whole nine yards.
He Glorified martyrdom, 72 Virgins, a different whole nine yards, Why should we just give him his nine yards on a silver platter?