The Debt Ceiling debate has us looking for where we can save some money in the Federal (and State) Budgets. This is part 1 of a continuing series
Here is a colossal FAIL: The so called war on drugs. Time to turn this expense into a revenue by decriminalizing and taxing the stuff.
Hat tip Peter W
Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Also, be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor even implied. Any irrelevancies you can mention will also be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.
The best way to keep money in perspective is to have some. —Louis Rukeyser
"It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine" say the French as consumer confidence in May rose to the highest since Nov '10 as they welcome and get excited about new Pres Hollande. Also, the French 10 yr bond yield touched the lowest on record this morning. June consumer confidence in Germany held at 5.7, just .2 pts off the highest since Mar '11. To the euro bond debate which is now taking on greater rhetoric with those with high bond yields wanting them and those with low ones saying no way, ECB member...
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July 25th, 2011 at 10:41 am
Almost as bad as annual costs to keep death row inmates. Where are the budget hawks when it comes to wastes in fight drug wars, prisons, prostitutions and general pensions for law enforcers?
July 25th, 2011 at 11:16 am
This is another good example of our failed electoral system of legalized bribery. Public opinion is clear, the smart policy is clear but both parties do the opposite and the media allows no dissent. In this case the wishes of the prison lobby outweigh public opinion and common sense but a similar dynamic is at work for just about every decision Washington makes.
We need to stop fighting each battle on a rigged playing field and start concentrating on fixing the system.
July 25th, 2011 at 11:24 am
You’re overlooking a significant unintended side effect: If we decriminalize drugs,what happens to all those folks making their living dealing? Do they suddenly come out of the underground economy and join the economically-productive, skills-based, taxpaying society? Or do they apply their violent criminal means elsewhere? And I don’t mean the small fry who get caught up in the legal nets, but the legions of hard core criminals…what will they turn to next?
July 25th, 2011 at 11:28 am
What about all those people who never smoked pot in school, because they didn’t want to ruin their possible careers in law enforcement or obtaining public office. What about how they feel, giving up all that fun? You want their sacrifice to be for nothing?
And this would be stiff competition for all the foreign-owned liquor companies, you want their profits slashed? And the foreign-owned beer companies? We NEED foreign direct investment in new Ultra Lite lime-based beers.
And what would all those anti-smoking advocates do? They’d be out of their non-profit bi-monthly meetings with all the other like-minded matrons.
And the parents that sternly told their kids to not even try it. What about their relationships with their children? Your talking about tearing up the American family, limb from limb.
A decision like legalizing pot would have grave consequences on the psyches of these important people.
…messing with people like this would lead you down the slippery slope of doing even more radical public policy I tell ya.
July 25th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Reductio Ad Absurdum:
Could we call it a war on crime and decriminalize everything.
Think of the savings in laying off law enforcement personnel and closing prisons.
July 25th, 2011 at 11:35 am
Sylvester Salcedo in Connecticut is running for the U.S. Senate based on the same issue: http://www.salcedoforsenate.com/issues.html He’s a former Naval officer and lawyer who protests current policy.
July 25th, 2011 at 11:54 am
> Time to turn this expense into a revenue by decriminalizing and taxing the stuff
Really . . . so decriminalize the trafficking, sale and use of soft AND hard drugs of all kinds, BR?
July 25th, 2011 at 11:55 am
It’s the war on “certain” drugs.
No victim, no crime.
July 25th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
That figure looks waaay too small. Oh, from the web site, it says “Money Spent on the War On Drugs *this Year*”
I’d wager 100 quatloos that the real figure is still higher than this.
July 25th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
People get so worked up about the concept that there might be better ways of combating crime than the “lock ‘em away and throw away the key” system we currently have in this country.
Here’s some actual facts about the US system:
1) We’re currently number 1 in the world for incarceration rate. Furthermore, the rate at which we throw our people in prison is about 30% higher than the number two country (Rwanda) and about 5x greater than that of England (which itself has the highest rate of the western European nations). http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate
2) As of 2004 55% of the people serving prison time in the US were there for drug related crimes. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/dudsfp04.pdf
July 25th, 2011 at 12:27 pm
@BR: This one sings.
Once upon a time I was working with the FBI, Marshalls, state police, ATF and DEA. ATF is as dirty as they get. I had an ATF neighbor afraid for his life because he blew the whistle.
And DEA? It’s kind of something like you have to FLUNK an IQ test to work there. The FBI quietly made sure they were no longer participants in our work.
And prisons? Most people don’t realize how “privatized” they’ve become. As in you take care of Uncle Sugar and he’ll take care of you. NO BID.
Anyone that thinks we are making a difference with our war on drugs needs to get out a little more. And perhaps start watching educational TV instead of FOX.
And yes, way more American hootch is imported than most are aware, including the world renowned Bourbon, starts out as an imported whiskey aged in foreign barrels in KY. ??????
July 25th, 2011 at 12:43 pm
“It’s the war on “certain” drugs.” + Individual Liberty, and Market Choice.
it, even, sweeps up Crops that aren’t even ‘Drugs’ ..
http://search.yippy.com/search?query=Legalize+Industrial+Hemp&tb=sitesearch-all&v%3Aproject=clusty
to begin with..
~~~
“…the real figure is still higher than this…”
no doubt.
July 25th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
What right does the Fed have to criminalize any drug? Where in the Constitution do they have jurisdiction over drugs or alcohol, for that matter? The Garcia and Raich cases were absurd perversities of law by the SCOTUS.
Gov. Gary Johnson is the only candidate that is crystal clear on his intent to change the Federal drug policies.
http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/drug-policy-reform
Also, as a matter of disclosure, I have never done any illegal drugs, including MJ.
July 25th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
Yep, give the slackers and the stupid one more way to take advantage of those who work, and value life.
Suggestion–Spend a little more time with people trying to recover from your “victimless” crime, and a little less time in the limo.
July 25th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
> “It’s the war on “certain” drugs.” + Individual Liberty, and Market Choice.
Correct, soft drugs (pot) for the data shown. BUT, if the drug war is a “colossal FAIL,” then legalizing all drugs would presumably make greater sense since the savings and taxes would be far greater. See:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/wtpapers/DrugProhibitionWP.pdf
for the estimates (one of the sources cited). I’m assuming this is BR’s position.
July 25th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Has fructose been declared an illegal drug? And how many people is it slowly killing via obesity and diabetes?
/Snark
@FS: Please don’t pretend to understand how to save people from themselves. Been there. Done that.
Offer them real support systems and jobs and see how that works out. Other than fueling bureaucrats that know how solve everyone’s problems.
And don’t diss them.
If you think about it, the sin taxes may be funding more government expenses than the elites paying nearly zip.
July 25th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Ok, so the Columbia and Mexican cartels would lose thier revenue source…if they turn to hard crimes maybe the police would just shoot them instead of accepting bribes…works for me….and we could get rid of another needless senseless federal government bureaucracy? That really works for me..
July 25th, 2011 at 1:55 pm
As usual, follow the money. Whether drugs are legal or not the user/abuser ends up on the same scrap pile of humanity. Society would benefit with legalization as there would be fewer real victims-that is folks who get mugged, or burglarized to get the money for the purchase of the stuff.
Having said that, the special interests would suffer significantly. Currently, the liquor lobby pretty much keeps the illegalization on the front burner. However, the law enforcement industry isn’t far behind nor is the imprisonment system far behind. Society only come to grips with this and other issues when the lobbyist industry is curtailed.
July 25th, 2011 at 1:59 pm
Barry, the fake debt ceiling crisis isn’t about cutting spending. It’s about cutting Programs that don’t fit the rep party’s storyline / ideology. War on drugs? Good fit. Not on the table. Public radio? Bad fit. Cut it. Military bases in 170 foreign countries? ( or some huge number) good fit. Not on the table. Free lunches for dirty poor children. Bad fit. Cut. Oxygen for old folks? Bad fit. Safe food and water? Consumer protection? Cut. Cut.
July 25th, 2011 at 2:10 pm
@FS There isn’t any hard numbers on this, but if we added up the money spent by “slackers and the stupid”, compared it against those “who work and value life”, then you might be surprised who spends more on recreation. If you’re saying how many “slackers and stupid” are trustifarians or spending their parents money on recreation, then doesn’t that make the parents “stupid”? There are winners and losers either way you slant the law (any law). The point is that this is not the government’s responsibility. Perhaps it’s yours, mine, the families, and communities of those who are incapable of functioning without an altered state of mind. But then this requires us to progress from a culture of “the government will take care of it, let’s watch ‘Ow, my balls’ on TV” (for reference see “Idiocracy” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/) . If we fight drugs, we should fight obesity, it kills more people and costs a lot of money in medical bills. As far as I can tell, there are more food addicts than drug addicts. Why spend time researching how to make people addicted to food feel better so they continue to use when we could be researching viruses, cancers, and non-invasive surgery techniques?
July 25th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
What we are doing now is definitely not working.
I live in Tucson 60 miles from the Mexican border and I can tell you there is some very serious $hit going on down there. Gunfights in the street, heads being cut off, and grenades being thrown into hotels. I have never seen it this bad.
July 25th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
BRAVO, Barry, that is indeed the low handing fruit!!
Too bad your only allies in this effort will be the libertarians at places like Cato that you have routinely demonized as lying idealogues as long as I have read you.
http://www.cato.org/drug-war
But don’t worry, they won’t hold it against you.
Speaking of low-hanging fruit, how about a BATFE that requires gun dealers in border states to sell to probable cartel straw-purchasers (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/15/us-mexico-guns-idUSTRE73E7PP20110415) while simultaneously blaming those same gun dealers for cartel violence (http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/robert-farago/atf-death-watch-9-the-u-s-was-the-source-of-at-least-70-of-29284-firearms-recovered-by-authorities-in-mexico-in-2009-and-2010-according-to-new-u-s-government-figures/)?
What’s the likely motivation behind this seeming paradox?
July 25th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
Want to smoke weed and follow the dead? Go for it. The pot heads never hurt anyone, but I have a problem with decriminalizing meth and the cocaine derivatives.
If coke were regulated the same way alcohol is, the increase in auto insurance expenses would surely offset the decrease in deficit spending expenses.
July 25th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
And, pray tell, how much did we spend this year on our war on savers?
How much did we spend on keeping unsustainable home loans from going bad?
How much did we pay to the banking cartel?
It’s a lot more than the numbers above. A veritable CRAP LOAD.
July 25th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
I’ve been in the middle of this decision politically for a long time. In my search for more information and perspective, I came across something that I can’t seem to resolve vis a vis liberty and responsibility.
Drugs don’t care about Borders. Decisions made in Holland have affected and effected the entire EU because of the export of pot. The issue of demand is a non-starter. There will always be a demand for drugs, legal or not. Legalization of drugs in the US will have effects throughout the world by way of exporting, a negative spillover, literally and figuratively.
At what point is one’s liberty or choice in one place worth infringing on the choice of another in another place?
July 25th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
I keep expecting to open the Chronicle one morning and read that two guys walked into an East End Houston cantina and emptied a couple of AK-47s, killing 20 or 30 patrons.
I don’t think most of us know just how near Mexico is to being a failed state. It is easily as violent as Somalia. And the chaos is driven by one thing—the enormous profitability of the illegal drug trade.
From the good of society perspective, I have serious misgivings about legalizing all drugs. Some are certainly ruinous for consumers. But as long as the money is so good, two jefes will take the place of every one you kill or jail. I simply don’t know to reduce the profitability other than to legalize.
July 25th, 2011 at 4:53 pm
@tawm: I recon they get pushed out by the Phisers & GSKs of the world.
July 25th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
@wannabe
Barry has lots of liberal company such as the ACLU and Human Rights Watch that are also touting the “Stop the drug war” meme.
Wow… this must mean that it’s possible for people to reach the same conclusion even when coming from different beliefs and philosophies!
July 25th, 2011 at 6:32 pm
@dsimmons;
One could raise the same questions regarding legalizing guns. We don’t seem to have much of a problem with that although clearly our legal guns are killing large numbers of people in other countries.
Most EU countries have very liberal policies regarding pot, so pot from Holland is probably much less of a problem than illegal guns from the US. Does anybody know where that Norwegian dude got his guns?
July 25th, 2011 at 6:44 pm
Most EU countries have very liberal policies regarding pot, so pot from Holland is probably much less of a problem than illegal guns from the US. Does anybody know where that Norwegian dude got his guns?
—
Which ones?
July 25th, 2011 at 6:45 pm
@James
>Really . . . so decriminalize the trafficking, sale and use of soft AND hard drugs of all kinds, BR?
Ah, an opinion we can ignore. Use of the false dilemma is a poor distraction friend.
Almost as bad as the people saying “what will criminals do if we take away drugs from them”, like their raison d’etre is to be a criminal. If the Colombian drug cartels could make half as much money but totally legally, I think you will find they would go for that. Violence is a means of protecting yourself when you are not entitled to any from the state or laws of the land. Be violent – maintain territory – make money. Many people would be fine with just the last part…
Pot is on a par with alcohol or tobacco in that it has risks both to health and to society but like we already do with alcohol/tobacco – those risks can be minimised and mitigated far more effectively when the product is legal. Legalising it gives you the moral high ground to point out the risks, to apply suitable controls but to ultimately leave it to the consumer to choose. That gets society on your side. When you adopt a prohibition approach to something that most people just see as a mostly harmless vice, you lose the support of the public and you erode their faith in public institutions.
On any logical or economic basis pot should be legal. On the same basis methamphetamines should not nor should heroin. In both cases the risks far outweigh the benefits. Most people do not look at meth as a vice, they see it as an affliction. No one aside from extreme libertarians will look at a heroin addict and applaud their right to make their own choices.
Basically, the war on drugs needs to be scaled down to a case of “picking your battles on drugs”
July 25th, 2011 at 6:51 pm
@ RecencyEffect
> On any logical or economic basis pot should be legal
Which has absolutely nothing to do with A QUESTION regarding Barry’s views on hard drugs.
July 25th, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Pot is the lightest of drugs, and some say beneficial (not necessarily healthy, but then, neither is red meat). We’ve classed this in with the hardest of hard drugs (where alcohol should be). I’m all for legalization, but don’t want to see large producers corner the market, by license, as is the case with liquor and tobacco.
As for harder drugs, it’s a health problem, but unless the junkie/crack head/meth tweaker is committing a real crime against another (robbery or DUI, for instance), there should really be no legal prohibition. Jail isn’t the answer.
July 25th, 2011 at 11:03 pm
To: VenData
Legalizing drugs should not create a problem with usage. If one wants to be a cop, Marine, etal then the qualifications of drug free living need to be retained, not changed. In growing up, Mom and Dad should explain that drugs are bad, though legal, just like drinking and alcoholism is bad, yet legal.
July 26th, 2011 at 12:12 am
Excellent Idea. Tax these activities that puts a burden on the healthcare system.
Put all the money back into healthcare.
Legalization is the only realistic way of reducing drug related crime.