Morbid (but interesting) discussion on the way home this evening about gun related deaths in the US. Here is the data I dug up:

The United States has the highest rate of gun related injuries (not deaths per capita) among developed countries.

In terms of their Firearm homicide rate (per 100,000 pop), only 8 nations — Colombia, Guatemala, Paraguay, Zimbabwe, Mexico, Costa Rica, Belarus and Barbados — beat the United States, which registers 2.97 gun deaths per 100,000 pop.

Most other developed nations run a fraction of our gun death rate per capita.
Switzerland (0.56), Canada (0.54), Germany (0.47), Finland (0.43), Ireland (0.32), Denmark (0.26), England (0.12), Australia, Japan, Korea? WAY WAY BELOW US. Singapore at 0.02 and Hong Kong at 0.01 barely even register

Estimates of gun violence costs in the USA are as high as $100 billion per year (See Phillip J. Cook, Gun Violence: The Real Costs (Studies in Crime and Public Policy) Most of that cost is due to emergency medical care. (National estimates of nonfatal firearm-related injuries).

~~~

See gunpolicy.org and nationmaster.com for data

Category: Current Affairs, Data Analysis

Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data and lack of respect for scientific knowledge. Be sure to create straw men and argue against things I have neither said nor implied. If you could repeat previously discredited memes or steer the conversation into irrelevant, off topic discussions, it would be appreciated. Lastly, kindly forgo all civility in your discourse . . . you are, after all, anonymous.

65 Responses to “US Gun Homicide & Cost Data”

  1. emaij says:

    Any gun ownership data to compare that to?

  2. marka says:

    The familiar catchcry is ”guns don’t kill people, people kill people” but guns are a massive multiplier for those murderous impulses

  3. jaymaster says:

    And 13 people died in an illegal immigrant smuggling operation yesterday too.

    Why aren’t we seeing this on the news 24/7?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/texas-truck-crash_n_1694850.html

  4. whskyjack says:

    Jay Master,

    Nothin new,
    A woody guthrie song.
    Deportee
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-z18oL-z_c

  5. wannabe says:

    Switzterland, huh?

    Isn’t that the place where all men do a stint in the military and then take an evil black “assault rifle” *gasp* home to keep? Why yes, I believe it is. If assault rifle ownership causes, murders then how is this possible?

  6. Petey Wheatstraw says:

    You can’t talk to a gun lover about the costs of gun related injuries and homicides. To them, it’s an emotional issue. A “gut feeling” in Chimpanzee terms.

    As the Beatles said, “Happiness is a warm (yes it is), gun. Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.”

  7. stiltdancer says:

    Even more outrageous is the black homicide rate. From the Violence Policy Center, for 2009 (the latest year available), the black homicide rate was 17.90/100,000 (82% due to guns), while the white homicide rate was 2.92/100,000.

    From “Black Homicide Victimization in the United States “(http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide12.pdf)

    Homicide rate is probably the better statistic to look at.

  8. 10x25mm says:

    You need to back out the suicide data from these numbers. Foreign suicide rates are mostly higher than US numbers, but they don’t use guns. Firearms suicides exceed homicides in the US, but they are included in your numbers for the US. This apples and oranges comparison distorts your conclusion.

    NPR ran a piece over the weekend that said Honduras has a firearms homicide rate far higher than the US, but they don’t show in your data. Something is wrong here.

  9. Old Rob says:

    Most of those countries are homogenous societies. They probably do not have the same level of callous media portrayal of violence in movies, games, etc as we do.

    $100 ‘bil’ seems a bit rich, but it can’t compare to our violence projected abroad (Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and through our intermediaries, etc).

    Adherence to law? Last time I checked Singapore and Hong Kong do not tolerate much crap from law breakers; we do.

    Numbers are interesting, but unfortunately they do not tell the whole story.

  10. wannabe says:

    How is it possible that this assault rifle is not killing everyone in sight?

    http://i.imgur.com/PyfC8.jpg

    ???

  11. super_trooper says:

    You’re doing better than Barbados….
    Sitting here in Barbados, makes the US look remarkably safe
    You’ve been here, was it that bad?

  12. JasRas says:

    Interesting statistics. But what does that really tell us about anything?

    Lies, lies and statistics- Mark Twain…

    If we broke that down and analyzed the gun deaths, we might find some interesting stats that have little to do with guns…like the socioeconomic groups predominately involved. How much is gang violence? How much is drug related? How much is Cartel v. Gang? Are those with less violent deaths more lax on their drug policies? Are they less moralistic in their laws? Would we find they spend much more on education, outreach, safety net programs? Would we find they have a less devisive population with regards to religion? Perhaps more agnostic, atheistic, so therefore prone to less extreme stances in cases of abortion, etc. Are their freedoms of speech and other rights as great or greater?

    When one quantifies simply HOW MANY guns are floating within our country, is it not simply amazing that the rate isn’t higher?

    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

    This link has us ranked 4 in gun murders. We are ranked 14th overall in homicides. We have a widening chasm between the “haves” and the “have nots”. If one divided the stats by income level, I’m sure no one would be surprised that the stats would be bottom heavy.

    These are not excuses or justifications, but this is an effort to clarify the “stats”. Our country has a population it largely pretends isn’t there and doesn’t matter. Occasionally an insane, middle-class person goes off and kills some people and we all freak out, but most of the time—you East Coast elite largely pretend the rest of the nation and especially the lower and no-class population do not exist.

    So don’t assuage your liberal conscience on this isolated event…be horrified at what happens everyday, just not to people in your social strata, and certainly not in your neighborhood.

    There are 70 million guns in general population–most safely in the hands of responsible citizens for recreational purpose, hunting, and property/self protection. A very small percent of the population commit the vast majority of violence of all sorts, and therefore a very small percent of the guns commit crimes.

    Since autos cause many more deaths a year than guns, at what point to we perform yearly driving exams on aging baby boomers so that they lose their driving privileges when they are no longer up to the task? I have the answer: NEVER. They are the single largest group of voters and they’ll drive until they do themselves or others harm. We will see auto accidents skyrocket over the next 10-15 years and we’ll do nothing.

    Gun control is a sideshow. If you want to prevent violence, invest in education, safety net, and outreach programs. Stop gang and drug related violence before it starts. Get in front of the problem. Gun control is treating the sniffle in a head cold. Treat the cold, not the symptoms.

  13. squire says:

    Moral of the story… if you hate guns you have several places you can go to.

  14. Frilton Miedman says:

    It’s gut-wrenching to watch some of the victims, absolutely gut wrenching to know women and children had to go through this.

    I’m pro second amendment, to clear the air, but automatic assault weapons , extended clips and states like AZ’s pathetic laws that allow straw buyers to buy unlimited numbers of weapons is way, way over the line..

    I don’t know what’s more frustrating, listening to some knucklehead insist the number of casualties in Co had nothing to do with an assault rifle with an 100 round extended clip, and the fault lies in the victims for not being armed.

    Or…knowing that even though my opinion IS the majority, that assault weapons are overkill, yet the NRA over rides the “free speech” of the majority of us.

    Corporations are NOT people, money is NOT free speech – it’s fucking bribery…

    As public frustrations mounts, I can’t see how America avoids a full scale revolt….profits in exchange for human lives, wars fought for defense contractors, 20K Americans die per year for lack of funds to buy insurance while insurance CEO’s rake in 8 figures, Gun deaths because the NRA forces us to allow AR-15′s in the hands of nut-cases.

    It seems like every single problem we have is linked to special interests bribing my government, every single fucking problem….human life in the name of profit, yeah, that’s the “liberty” and “free speech” the founding fathers had in mind.

  15. M says:

    Not to minimize the cost or risk of gun homicide or to suggest equivalences moral, utilitarian or otherwise, but, remember, cars kill people in greater numbers and at much higher per capita rates than guns. http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1103.pdf Almost 100 people died per day in motor vehicle accidents in 2009.

    We people, as a class, suck at risk analysis.

    We often divert resources from the most productive safety measures to more emotionally satisfying ones. The end result is likely that we fail to get the greatest achievable reduction in preventable deaths for our resources.
    http://www.allgov.com/Top_Stories/ViewNews/More_Americans_Killed_by_Bees_and_Wasps_or_Falling_Televisions_than_by_Terrorists_120610

  16. ZedLoch says:

    Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.

    Just like airplanes don’t fly. People fly.

    I’d like to invite the NRA lobbyists to jump of a 10-story building to test the theory.

  17. stiltdancer says:

    The latest UN Report, Global Study on Homicide, 2011 (http://goo.gl/IRZYZ) is hard to pull data from. But Wikipedia (http://goo.gl/2UoCi) seems to match it closely and puts the United States in the upper 1/3 of countries for homicide rate.

    There are a lot of good charts and maps in the UN Report.

    It appears that knives are involved in a lot more homicides in other countries than in the US.

    We’re still a pretty violent country.

  18. Rich in NJ says:

    At the very least, can’t their be political consensus that a person shouldn’t be able to buy ammo on the internet?

  19. thetruthseeker says:

    Chicago, Illinois. Enough said.

  20. moregusto says:

    Seems like we need to regulate Batman movies or maybe popular culture. Looks like this nutjob would have just resorted to other lethal alternatives as he lived out his “joker’ fantasy.

  21. Moss says:

    Regardless of ones stance on guns it is hard to rationalize the attack weapons that one can get.

  22. AndrewShaw says:

    If someone wants to back out suicides, I want to back out drug-prohibition connected homicides. My wild ass guess is that 2 of the 3 per 100k are drug trade involved and would be hugely mitigated by drug policy reform.

  23. A says:

    And those costs are just US-based.

    The accounting isn’t covering the costs of gun crime resulting from guns being ‘exported’ to Mexico and Canada.

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obama-romney-back-gun-owners-as-they-decry-shootings/article4436923/

  24. whskyjack says:

    Frilton Miedman said it.
    Let me add.
    Any ones second amendment rights can be protected with a bolt action rifle and a double barrel shot gun. The first to keep an out of control government in check and the latter to keep intruders at bay. Everything else should either be severely regulated up to and including some things being banned for civilian owner ship.

    No one needs a weapon that can shoot 100 rounds in a minute.

    Jack

  25. just-sayin says:

    Here’s something else to think about.

    There are apparently about 300 million guns in the USA or almost one for every person.

    So then, why are guns still being manufactured ?……should there be 2,3 4 guns for every single
    person?
    In fact, what appears to be happening is that the excess gun production is leaking into
    other countries such as Canada where it is easy to obtain illegal guns smuggled in from USA.
    This, is leading to increasing use of guns in violent crimes in places like Toronto. The past month
    has been a very bad month for gun murders in Toronto.

  26. YouthInAsia says:

    “human life in the name of profit, yeah, that’s the “liberty” and “free speech” the founding fathers had in mind.”

    Stop crying about people spending their money how they see fit and start crying about every fat lazy asshole on his couch watching the TV or playing video games or doing anything other than spending even an hour of their time an election cycle to get educated.

    We get the government we deserve.

  27. Frwip says:

    I’m a strong originalist when it comes to the 2nd Amendment.

    I adamantly believe that the right of all able men and women to own and operate a hand-crafted, muzzle loading musket and to carry a pair of flintlock single-shot pistols shall not be infringed. Arquebuses are ok, too.

  28. Jojo says:

    Mass Shootings in the United States Since 2005

    http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/major-shootings.pdf

  29. seth1066 says:

    RE: Petey Wheatstraw: As the Beatles said, “Happiness is a warm (yes it is), gun. Bang, bang. Shoot, shoot.”

    Lennon himself said the lyrics were not about guns, but were sexual in nature as would seem obvious.

  30. Dan Z says:

    Anyone who compares the deadliness of guns to cars is either disingenuous or lacks some major cognitive abilities.

    Electricity is dangerous, is that relevant? No. The primary functionality of both cars and electricity is not killing living beings.

  31. Joe Friday says:

    A census by the state of Massachusetts in 1789 showed only 5.8% of the people owned a gun, and in the first U.S. Census done in 1810, it found only 4.3% of people owned a gun.

    The reason the percentages of ownership were so small was because guns were STRICTLY REGULATED, both before and after the 2nd amendment was ratified by all 13 states, with many people barred from owning guns.

    What was that again about original intent ?

  32. swag says:

    Oh, don’t you fret so: James Holmes is obviously a member of a well regulated militia that is necessary for the security of a free state.

  33. DrSandman says:

    well-regulated == highly trained and drilled in 18th century American English.

    The monster in CO was neither trained nor drilled.

  34. M says:

    @Dan Z — FWIW, I see your point morally. I strongly believe the USA would be a better place with fewer guns (public and private) and stronger gun control.

    For me, though, a moral priority is reducing the number of preventable deaths to a minimum.

    If, for example, it turned out that the most lives could be saved by spending all available capital on improved roads and none on gun control I’d choose to do that. Looking at the numbers, that’s not an implausible scenario. It is not a satisfying one.

    Guns are inherently violent. Most of them have little or no utility. Gun violence is particularly shocking. Guns and cars are not moral equivalents. But, by the numbers, we are in much greater danger from bad roads than we are from guns even in our gun happy country. Is it moral then to use funds for gun control that could be used on road safety because guns are bad even if it means an increase in the per capita risk of death? I think this is a very hard question because there are qualitative issues in play as well as quantitative ones.

    However, there is no doubt that motor vehicles are a lot more dangerous to us than guns. It is the cognitive defect that makes that hard to understand that makes it hard to make good choices about the risks we take and the most effective ways to minimize them. That was all I was trying to point out in my original comment.

  35. Frilton Miedman says:

    YouthInAsia Says:
    July 23rd, 2012 at 11:00 pm
    “…We get the government we deserve.”

    Absolute bullshit.

    We choose between which corporate sponsored asswipe is least likely to sell us even further down the river.

    Educate yourself, start by learning the cost just to campaign for office, than ask your newly “educated” self, what average Joe could possibly afford that kind of money without pledging himself to wealthy sponsors and promoting their agenda in return.

    Then, “educate” yourself on what a regulated, publicly financed campaign system might do.

    Oops, turns out you’re the one whom needs an education….get off the couch, put away the Playstation, get to work.

  36. hondje says:

    Too many middle class baby boomers here and not enough of us poor ass ghetto folk. We get worked up about our guns because we’re terrified. The police are a paramilitary force now, the NSA has gone full-stasi, at one point habeas corpus was thrown out the window etc etc etc and it’s only going to get worse. You hit on guns and you’re pushing the fear button on half the population. Collectively us working poor people are far more afraid of what is to come than some random madman.

  37. romerjt says:

    Let’s apply some market principles here . . . those who own guns should pay the associated external costs which would be a lot more than the $100,000B estimate when you include the cost of prison for every criminal who used a gun to commit their crime. Gun owner should take personal responsibility for the collateral damage to society for the security they get from owning a gun. Even with the low $100B estimate it’s over $1000 / yr for the 100M plus gun owners. If they don’t pay we all do and the cost is about $300 for every person (again, using the low ball $100B estimate).

    And, there should be no CONCEALED weapons, if you want to carry a gun, wear outside so everyone can see and exercise their personal freedom to avoid you if they choose. If restaurants, bars or other businesses want to let you shop with your gun I’d like to know it so I can choose to shop else where.

  38. Petey Wheatstraw says:

    The totally freekin’ insane aside, hondje makes a valid point.

    Many of those who are arguably the most vocal proponents of unregulated gun ownership are apparently hyper-concerned (read: obsessive), about the government ‘taking over,’ or something similar (blacks taking over, muslims taking over, etc.).

    These folks fear loss of control on a personal level. They are afraid of you. They are afraid of me. They are afraid of their neighbors. Mostly, they fear the government. Paranoia strikes deep, indeed.

    They want full clip, fully-automatic, armor-peircing weapons. And as many as they can own. They want to carry firearms in places where there is no valid reason to do so.

    Forget that the 2nd Amendment is vague in its use of the term “arms,” but fairly specific regarding the reason for the ownership of arms.

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    I don’t see anyone advancing the argument that they can own a tank, or a land mine, or a grenade, or a flame thrower, rocket launcher, ICBM, or any other “arm” that could counter those our government (or any invading force) already has.

    Where are all of the well-regulated militias? Why is it that a free citizen cannot exercise their right to carry arms in a Federal or other government building (the government in the form of an un-free state, after all, being the tyrant identified in the Constitution), but increasingly seeks the right to do so in bars, restaurants, schools, markets, churches, and other non-governmentalpublic places?

    As with our financial system, our tolerance for the obviously asinine is astounding.

  39. ben22 says:

    this is older (1992)

    but an interesting read:

    http://jpfo.org/pdf03/gun-control-myths-92.pdf

  40. JasRas says:

    Anyone who doesn’t see the salient argument between cars and guns has likely never ridden on the road and had a car used as a weapon against them.

    Other similarities…in American it is thought we have a God given right to own and drive a car. More so than any other nation. We allow that right at an earlier age than almost any other developed nation. And we are far more lax in our standards/rules/testing to attain a license.

    And the death toll from autos while lower per capita than anytime in history is still a jaw dropping number.

    It is no joke and is relevant to the conversation. Society has approved and wants autos and largely ignores the unintended consequences of our lax attitudes toward driving rights. Because its purpose isn’t to kill but to transport. Yet autos are usually a 2 ton or more mass, driven casually while multi-tasking, by people that have no working knowledge of physics.

  41. [...] peoples just love their guns to death. Barry Ritholtz at The Big Picture dug up some quick data on guns and killing — it ain’t pretty. The United States has the [...]

  42. JasRas says:

    California and New York are two of the most restrictive gun control states, yet they are number 1 and number 2 in total gun deaths and gun deaths per capita… How’s that gun control law band-aid working? Don’t you feel safer? Oh wait, CA and NY also have some of the most active gang and drug population in the country…And if they are not gangster/drug dealers, they also have the largest spread between uber-rich and super poor. Mix that in with high population density and you have a recipe for violence. Maybe THAT should be worked on, rather than keeping law abiding citizens from owning weapons because the outlaws live “outside” the law…

  43. JasRas says:

    @ Petey Wheatstraw….there are those of us who find it appalling that the nation’s Attorney General set up an operation to put U.S. sourced guns in Mexican drug cartel hands so he could have a catalyst for increased gun control… People are justified to be skeptical of government and their intentions. In fact, it was an underlying trait of many of those who founded this country a couple hundred years ago…

    “Those people” aren’t afraid of you or me…they are afraid of the dis-enfranchised that see a growing gap…no chasm between dirt poor and middle class. If rich Republicans with their no tax mumbo jumbo, suck the corporate teat, don’t wake up, they’ll find themselves in the middle of something akin to the French Revolution.

    I, personally, live in an urban area (for the Midwest) that is historic and nice, but the neighborhood is surrounded by less nice neighborhoods. A choice, yes, but we’ve been broken into a few time over the last few years. Got the alarm. But police take 5-10 minutes to show on a good run, let alone if they’re busy. The kids know the various locations for mace in the house and know what to do. Very unlikely scenarios. But they play in your head as a parent. Have you seen a Meth addict? I have. You know what they’d do to get enough money for another round of meth? Anything.

    Now, maybe you commute your two hours from Connecticut into the big city. Maybe your sleepy part of the world sees no need for defensive weapons. But municipalities are stretched. Fire, Police and EMT service is strained in much of the nation that isn’t removed from the realities of this economy. The right to have a way to protect oneself and loved ones is likely more important now than at anytime in the last fifty years.

    So if you conservatives want to dismantle government and valued services, want to not properly fund Parks departments because you don’t use them, want less taxes, less “waste”, then you should adequately prepare for the unintended consequences.

    We are rapidly moving to a world of “every man for themselves ” on multiple fronts. The affluent, who don’t need the world’s assistance, insist that everyman take that stance. These are not concepts that built this nation. They will be concepts that tear us apart. What is asinine are banal arguments for gun control when most gun violence is a symptom of much deeper, graver problems. Colorado was a mad man delivering death. He would have accomplished his goal with or without guns. Witness his apartment… He is not the prototypical violent gun user. He is a Darwinian bad sperm rarity.

    Gun control is not a real issue. No one will talk about real issues because they take years/decade to affect and improve. We are too ADHD to do that. It is sad, but true.

  44. Petey Wheatstraw says:

    JasRas:

    Clearly, population/density and other factors weigh into a more thorough analysis.

    Check this interactive map, and some of the distinctions between gun control and non-gun control states disappear (click on the drop down ‘firearms robberies’ for example).

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/sep/27/gun-crime-map-statistics

  45. Petey Wheatstraw says:

    JasRas:

    Here’s where your argument falls apart:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/sep/27/gun-crime-map-statistics

    Click on the drop down boxes.

  46. Greg0658 says:

    since I’m signed in and I do care too .. been thinking as I read thru thread – of 2 Patrick Swayze movies – Red Dawn & Road House

    hondje & Petey hit the nerve I think .. there is that siren call line – “once they’re gone it’s then to late” .. take a look at whats going on around the world – the USA is not that different of breed of humans

    and 2nd I’ve been wondering if high end war armaments could be behind what each community feels is their open but controlled Armory .. but that won’t work – will it

  47. ComradeAnon says:

    Switzerland does have a well regulated militia. Literally. They also have a very well educated, wealthy and peaceful population. They also heavily regulate weapons and ammunition ownership and sales. And they don’t let the militia keep ammunition. Anyone that compares the U.S, to Switzerland in any way, well, as Barry says “Please use the comments to demonstrate your own ignorance, unfamiliarity with empirical data, ability to repeat discredited memes, and lack of respect for scientific knowledge.”

  48. whskyjack says:

    JasRas,

    So are you arguing that guns should be treated like cars?
    I’m good with that.
    After all all car ownership is tracked from the time it is manufactured to the time it is destroyed.

    There are stringent use requirements for cars. One must demonstrate a basic ability to use a car and that permission can be taken away for a variety of reasons.
    There are strict controls on when and where and how you may use a car, with 1000′s of dedicated police at all levels whose only job is to seek out those misusing their car.
    Sounds like a good plan

  49. schirimiester says:

    The NRA is ALL about SELLING guns.
    Nothing else.
    Don’t shit yourself.

  50. peachin says:

    The NRA Money $$$ pay offs via lobbying is our primary problem… the gun laws would much stiffer and the purchase of ammunition would be limited – let’s face it – NRA Kills People – not all, but more than if there interference was not tolerated – no one will doubt that! NRA Buys Death!

  51. peachin says:

    PS. I am a gun owner – The NRA is a disease in this country… I don’t need them to protect my rights – so why are they there?

  52. Frilton Miedman says:

    JasRas Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 8:34 am
    “Anyone who doesn’t see the salient argument between cars and guns has likely never ridden on the road and had a car used as a weapon against them.”

    I see, so inanimate objects don’t kill people, people kill people, therefore let’s not regulate any inanimate objects.

    Do you know where I can purchase a nuclear warhead?

  53. just-sayin says:

    There is indeed a comparison between guns,cars/roads, electricity and any other
    human endeavor that involves risk to the public.

    Society will establish a level of risk associated with a practice (and try to control it with various laws etc.)
    that is appropriate for that country/state/province or what have you.

    These area-specific acceptable risk levels are not always ‘rational’ and neither
    are they always the same in each area.

    E.g. -USA has accepted a higher level of gun related deaths as ‘acceptable’ than many other countries.
    - China has accepted the consequences of a higher use of coal compared to Europe/North America.
    - anyone who drives in places like Mexico and Dominican Republic realizes there is a higher level of
    acceptance of road accidents in these places.

    I spend the winters in Mexico and contrary to what the news would have you believe…I am not afraid
    of being shot…I am afraid of being hit by a crazy Mexican driver…

  54. wannabe says:

    Not a single mention on this entire thread about the hidden cost-savings of defensive use? Or the costs that would accrue from it’s banning?

    This place is all about the data, right? Where’s THAT data?

    How much money did Jeanne Assam save us?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Life_Church_(Colorado_Springs,_Colorado)

    And why don’t any of you know her name?
    http://pjmedia.com/blog/media-underplays-successful-defensive-gun-use/

  55. Frilton Miedman says:

    wannabe Says:
    July 24th, 2012 at 12:47 pm
    ” Not a single mention on this entire thread about the hidden cost-savings of defensive use? Or the costs that would accrue from it’s banning?

    This place is all about the data, right? Where’s THAT data?

    How much money did Jeanne Assam save us?”

    It took her a 100 round clip in an AR-15 automatic assault rifle to take out the shooter?

    This is exactly the convenient thinking that’s agitating people.

    It took a single bullet, not a spray of fire from an automatic assault rifle, I haven’t seen anyone oppose the 2nd amendment on this blog…..only common sense – background checks, restrictions on extended clips, stop states like AZ from allowing unlimited purchases by straw buyers.

  56. Joe Friday says:

    As to a “well regulated militia”, the U.S. Supreme Court previously affirmed that today’s ‘National Guard’ is the equivalent to a state militia in Maryland v. United States, 381 U.S. 41 (1965) and Perpich v. Department of Defense, 496 U.S. 334 (1990).

  57. IanMud says:

    The Aurora shooting is being blamed on our “Sin Problem” (Mike Huckabee) and “may have been avoided if we had closer ties to God” (Rep. Louie Gohmert).

    Did a little research on gun deaths and church attendance by state and it turns out that of the top 9 states ranked by church attendance, 8 of them rank in the top 15 in terms of per capita gun deaths.

    These are:
    Mississippi #1 Church attendance, #6 Gun Deaths
    Alabama #2 Church Attendance, #9 Gun Deaths
    Louisiana #3 Church attendance, #1 Gun Deaths
    South Carolina #4 Church Attendance, #13 Gun Deaths
    Tennessee #6 Church Attendance, #10 Gun Deaths
    Arkansas #7 Church Attendance, #8 Gun Deaths
    North Carolina #8 Church Attendance, #14 Gun Deaths
    Georgia #9 Church Attendance, #15 Gun Deaths

    That, my friends is statistically significant. Draw your own conclusions.

  58. DeDude says:

    @Frilton Miedman and wannabe;

    Also remember that Jeanne Assam was a trained security guard and her shoots were fired in the lobby about 30 min. after the service had started. So even though most of her shots did not hit the gunman they also did not hit into a crowd of innocent people. The same situation in a dark crowded room where nobody know who among the 20 people drawing guns are good guys and who are bad guys would have a much different outcome. It is just about certain that more innocent people would have been killed by good guys than by the bad guy.

    This morning they had a police video of an officer who fired about 7-8 shots at a guy running his car towards the officer (who was covered by the bumper of his patrol car and not hit). The officer justifiably shot at the guy but in spite of the fact that he was about 3-6 feet away from the car during all 7-8 shots, NOBODY was hurt!. So a highly trained officer in a “time restrained, high stress” situation couldn’t hit the target from that short a distance, even with 7-8 shots. Thankfully it was not in a crowed room those shots were fired.

    The wonderful empowering fantasy of one guy, with the right weapon, taking a single good shot and killing the bad guy (with no collateral damage), is from story books. In the real world things are a lot more likely to go the way it goes for people who get a handgun to protect themselves and their family against intruders (that gun is 10 times more likely to be hurting someone who is not an intruder).

  59. wannabe says:

    De Dude…

    Your talk of empowering fantasy and ultimate ineffectuality is a projection of your own feelings onto the rest of us. Your data-free assertions clarify nothing except for your own state of mind. Many “trained professionals” shoot with us at practical shooting matches. The second-rate safety habits and marksmanship of policemen are a running joke.

    The most recent mass shootings in the United States have all happened in “gun-free” zones. Do you really think that’s a coincidence?

  60. DeDude says:

    “The second-rate safety habits and marksmanship of policemen are a running joke”

    And that of 20 armed Joe 6 packs in a crowded theater would be better?

  61. wannabe says:

    Tell you what… you stick to your “gun-free” zones, and I’ll avoid them like the plague. Deal?

  62. Mick Lovin says:

    There are no measurable statistics about defensive gun use, because when a criminal comes up against an armed citizen and flees the scene, there is rarely any follow up or report.

    Mexico used to have a right to bear arms, and as that right got taken away, the results are evident in the 100,000+ homes siting vacant just over the border in Juarez, and the 10s of thousands of gun deaths in Mexico.

    Then there are the uneducated mentioning 100 round clips…(there is no such thing as a 100 round clip they are called magazines)

    I am not saying there is any need for 100 round magazines, but a 20-30 round magazine is excellent when I am out whacking prarie dogs or squirrels in enviromentally safe no poison zones (poisoned varmints lead to dead eagles, thus we developed the Northern California Raptor Preservation Society for the specific purpose of shooting squirrels) with my modern sporting rifle (looks like a military AR-15) but is not automatic, as that is illegal in this country without specialized licenses and the $10,000+ it costs for one).

    I leave this as an open invitation for anyone that wants to go on a squirrel safari hunt in Northen California next spring, we will provide firearms if you do not have your own, but I encourage you to try the .17 HMR, .22, 22-250, .223/5.56, 25-06 rifles we use, as well as the special 9mm/.357/.44/.45 pistol competition we have on this trip. Amazingly no one gets hurt other than the 100s of squirrels we shoot each day for the thankful farmers…

    If you have never handled a gun, and you spout off about the dangers of them, you have no idea what the fuck your talking about, statistically speaking…

    Scotty V

  63. Mick Lovin says:

    There are no measurable statistics about defensive gun use, because when a criminal comes up against an armed citizen and flees the scene, there is rarely any follow up or report.

    Mexico used to have a right to bear arms, and as that right got taken away, the results are evident in the 100,000+ homes siting vacant just over the border in Juarez, and the 10s of thousands of gun deaths in Mexico.

    Then there are the uneducated mentioning 100 round clips…(there is no such thing as a 100 round clip they are called magazines)

    I am not saying there is any need for 100 round magazines, but a 20-30 round magazine is excellent when I am out whacking prarie dogs or squirrels in enviromentally safe no poison zones (poisoned varmints lead to dead eagles, thus we developed the Northern California Raptor Preservation Society for the specific purpose of shooting squirrels) with my modern sporting rifle (looks like a military AR-15) but is not automatic, as that is illegal in this country without specialized licenses and the $10,000+ it costs for one).

    I leave this as an open invitation for anyone that wants to go on a squirrel safari hunt in Northen California next spring, we will provide firearms if you do not have your own, but I encourage you to try the .17 HMR, .22, 22-250, .223/5.56, 25-06 rifles we use, as well as the special 9mm/.357/.44/.45 pistol competition we have on this trip. Amazingly no one gets hurt other than the 100s of squirrels we shoot each day for the thankful farmers…

    If you have never handled a gun, and you spout off about the dangers of them, you have no idea what the fuck your talking about, statistically speaking…

    Scotty V

  64. Frilton Miedman says:

    Mark, I hate the idea that anyone can buy a 100 round CLIP online.